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Forum Contributor 2007-2012, Distinguished SOTW Te
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
To get up to speed on the Keilwerth New King/Tone King and its stencils, first see Saxpics' breakdown here.

I've emailed this info to saxpics as well, but in the interim between now and when he updates his Keilwerth page, thought it might be good to get this info out there.

Paste of the email I sent Pete:

"Did a bit of measuring and playing on a New King 15xxx alto lacquer and a King Modell 3 13xxx silver plate these past few days. I believe they are identical in body tube and neck, with the only differences being in keywork. The Modell 3's keywork is not as nice, and seems to be a "budget" model, if not just an earlier model. The differences are:

1. One less roller on the LH pinky table of the Modell 3. One roller between Bb and B (located on the Bb), instead of two (on both Bb and B) like on the New King, making the roll a bit less slick.
2. Regular side keys on the Modell 3, vs. the way cool ones on the New King.
3. No rollers on the low B and Bb activating levers (where the actual keycups are activated by the arms attached to the keys on the pinky table) on the Modell 3, while they are present on the New King. A little teflon makes this unnoticeable, however.
4. No front F on the Modell 3, while the New King has one.
5. No cool textured plastic G# key on the Modell 3.

I think thats it, although I am working from memory right now. The necks were interchangeable. The keywork is a mixture of Selmer, Conn, and what-have-you, and is surprisingly comfortable and modern-feeling, with the exception of the pinky table which is Conn 6M all the way (although I personally believe the M series pinky tables to be far superior to the modern Selmer style). The sound is... well, unbelievable. Full, powerful, sweet, ballsy, pure... the sax just seems to float in midair and never gets in the way.

The main issue when working on these has been that the rolled tone holes are WAY unlevel, and my horn at least was never refinished (not so sure on the New King, the lacquer is obviously very old, but is over the engraving, although the engraving looks very deep and even), so it must have come that way from the factory.

I will take a picture of them side by side and send it to you soon. Would you also like detailed pictures of both horns by themselves?

By the way, these are BADA** horns. And by bada** I mean everyone who plays them plays about .5 seconds of their first note and then yells "WOW!" into the mouthpiece, and then offers to buy it. These horns have my vote for best alto ever- although I am getting a gold plate Dolnet Royal Jazz alto, Buescher New Aristo #2 neck alto, and a Conn 26M with overslung "New York" neck AND microtuner this week- and I am hoping one or both of them will at least be able to compete, although to be honest I can't see that happening. These horns are THAT bada**.

My Modell 3 is my main alto now (dethroned a 28M by a frickin' mile and a half) and the New King I mentioned has replaced the long time main axe (a customized yamaha yas-62 purple label) of this guy: www.loganrichardson.com."

Picture of the two saxes side by side, New King on the left and Modell 3 on the right:


 

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Forum Contributor 2007-2012, Distinguished SOTW Te
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Discussion Starter · #2 · (Edited)
As a follow up, I have since gotten the Dolnet, New Aristo, and 26M in and played the Dolnet and the 26M vs. the Modell 3- the New Aristo needs an overhaul first. Although the Dolnet and 26M weren't in what I would consider perfect playing condition, the Modell 3 still won in terms of sound in my book- although the other horns look quite a bit nicer, and the 26M certainly feels nicer too.

One of my quirks/hobbies is always playing every horn of mine that I overhaul vs. my main horn of that size and promoting the winner to Main Axe. For a while this meant changing horns every few months as my tastes changed, or if one looked nicer but played the same. So far nothing has come close to this Modell 3 though, and I have a feeling if I ever start using another alto as my main alto anytime soon, it will probably be a New King from the same vintage. Of course a LOT of this is my personal preference in sound, but in any case I encourage anyone who has a the opportunity to give one of these 10xxx to 20xxx (or therabouts- I recently got a 21xxx Tone King that looks to be pretty much the same, I'll know more once it comes in) Keilwerths a try.

For what its worth, if you do find one of these, I and others that have played on these find that stubby large chamber pieces seems to work best for intonation. Think Master Link, Slant Sig, and my Morgan 3C does fine too. Longer, small chambered pieces (like a s80 C*) tended to have the palm keys way flat and the bell keys way sharp- a sure sign of having too long a mouthpiece and too small a chamber, respectively.
 

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Great report!

Thanks very much.
 

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So, too long of a mouthpiece makes the palm keys flat and too small of a chamber makes the bell keys sharp? Is that correct?

That would explain the intonation on a New King Tenor that I had.

I would love to have one of the original series New Kings with those way cool side keys!

I agree with the comparison of the pinky tables. I've always found the balance action type setup to be, well, out of balance, with the pinky keys being too light in touch compared to the rest of the horn. I find myself always wanting to beef up the springs on the pinky keys with this setup.

I find the set up on these Keilwerths, Kohlerts, Zephyrs etc... to be the most comfortable. Traditional pinky table with RH bell keys.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
spiderjames said:
So, too long of a mouthpiece makes the palm keys flat and too small of a chamber makes the bell keys sharp? Is that correct?

That would explain the intonation on a New King Tenor that I had.
Yeah, thats how it works. I first found that out through Paul Coats, and empirical evidence shows it to be true again and again. Saxophones tune by length and volume, with length being more of the defining variable towards the palm keys, and volume more towards the bell keys.

You get some guys saying that mouthpiece selection has nothing to do with intonation, but you might as well then say neck selection has nothing to do with intonation.

I guarantee every time you have flat palm keys and sharp bell keys, a stubbier, larger chambered mouthpiece will help fix the problem. Conversely if you are using a stubby, large chamber piece, and your palm keys are sharp and your bell keys are flat, you need to try a longer, smaller chambered mouthpiece.
 

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Hmm,

interesting pics

I have a 62 New King Tenor complete with plastic keyguard

the keywork, especially the side keys, look like the right hand pic

and there are two rollers (black) on the "pinky key"

and the top of my gooseneck is very different - its a single taper without the fattening or rings

Thankx for sharing

Jim

=mjc=
.
 

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Interesting to read.
I have a Keilwerth The NewKing series 0, serie no. 3xxx. It's the best sounding tenor I've ever played. I have to work a bit with the intonation but it's not a big problem.


I love this horn:)
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·

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Many congratulations, Matt! I have been looking for a good example of these tenors on German Ebay for over two years. It never occurred to me to look in Nebraska....
 

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I play a model IV Keilwerth TONEKING Alto.
I´m very satisfied with it.
VERY satisfied.

So, for any of those who have cross-tested the Model IV vs. older Keilwerths - is there any reason to believe that the newer ones are worse (apart from looking "cheaper" as put on saxpics.com)???

btw, I have the silver version which doesn´t really look cheap, I think: http://www.saxpics.com/cpg143/displayimage.php?album=2130&pos=0

Again: does anyone know whether apart from design issues (plastic keyguard, rolled toneholes) the general design of these horns has changed?
What about the SOUND?
Cause I feel my one is really adorable...can definitely compete with an SX90R...and the mechanics are superb.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
I wouldn' say worse, but definitely different.

The feel of the horn under the fingers is drastically different. The tone is different as well. I would say the older ones have a more pure tone, but it still fills up the room the way a later one will. Just not quite as growl-y. It really is just a different sax. Try one! Nothing wrong with having more than one Keilwerth :)

(Just for the series I, I have three of the altos now, and one of the tenors!)
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
For anyone interested in this thread, I got my "King Modell 3" tenor in the mail a few days ago, and it is very like my alto in every detail, with the exception that it has a front F! Score.

The front F is interesting because the tenor is an earlier serial than my alto- which means that it must have either been an option on these horns (which means there may be King Modell 3 altos with front Fs somewhere), or perhaps the tenor King Modell 3s all had front Fs while the altos did not.

I am working on getting an in-depth early Keilwerth article for my website, when I get it up, I will post the link here.
 

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so, how much then for the modell 3? ;-)

good effort, it's what i've been looking for for a while now, enjoy.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
The Modell 3 tenor is staying with me :)

But, I highly advise getting one! This one is in extremely bad shape padwise, but just whisper through it and the sound carries through the house and out onto the street! I can't wait until I have some spare time to overhaul it.
 

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abadcliche said:
The Modell 3 tenor is staying with me :)

But, I highly advise getting one! This one is in extremely bad shape padwise, but just whisper through it and the sound carries through the house and out onto the street! I can't wait until I have some spare time to overhaul it.
how about the Alto attached above? :D
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Staying as well. I may have another one in the future though, so send me an email if you want to know when I've got one for sale next.
 

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abadcliche said:
For what its worth, if you do find one of these, I and others that have played on these find that stubby large chamber pieces seems to work best for intonation. Think Master Link, Slant Sig, and my Morgan 3C does fine too. Longer, small chambered pieces (like a s80 C*) tended to have the palm keys way flat and the bell keys way sharp- a sure sign of having too long a mouthpiece and too small a chamber, respectively.
The same seems to be true (IME) for all Keilwerths until the Modell Ponzol..even the Couf Superbas. I have the 108M and 110M Conn stencils of the Toneking Exclusiv (they have modern octave keys and hinged LH spatulas, but are early 80xxx SNs).
Even my Florida Link tenor has a hint of sharp/flat, but a Morgan Jazz L works well. I have an old WW NY with a small tip and huge chamber that sends it the other way round (palms sharp and bell keys flat)
 

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abadcliche said:
Staying as well. I may have another one in the future though, so send me an email if you want to know when I've got one for sale next.
hey matt,
just looking at your thread again, as i can't get over the Modell 3.

although, i have a question. do u know what year the modell3 would've been produced given the serial number?
 

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shmuelyosef said:
The same seems to be true (IME) for all Keilwerths until the Modell Ponzol..even the Couf Superbas. I have the 108M and 110M Conn stencils of the Toneking Exclusiv (they have modern octave keys and hinged LH spatulas, but are early 80xxx SNs).
Even my Florida Link tenor has a hint of sharp/flat, but a Morgan Jazz L works well. I have an old WW NY with a small tip and huge chamber that sends it the other way round (palms sharp and bell keys flat)
A Barone Hollywood or Link NY seem just about right for my 110M
 
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