[Classax]

It seems to me that Keilwerth is in a catch 22, the new horns aren't really selling and the old horns seem to be retaining their percieved value as they also sit o shelves. To me the SX90r is the most versatile and dynamic horn I've ever played. I've played a few horns I thought were men until they were regulated and POW! I just don't get that singing sensation on a Yani or even a Mauriat.

Other than the wider ergos have the market seemed to reject these horns?

I know some will say quality control but I have never encountered issues with any SX90r I've actually seen in the flash. The tone holes and rings on my 106xxx SX90r are dead level. I have access to 11 other sx90r alto's and tenors and they all are spot on. So what gives? It can't be cost given what a Yani or CustomZ or Selmer go for.

Sound, to my ears the JK are the most flexible, meaning you can get whatever sound you are looking for. That's a pro for a great player or a con for poor ones I suppose. Thoughts?

 

[milandro]

This may be your perception in the US. But I think in Europe things are a little different.

The Keilwerth brand underwent deep financial problems and was first acquired by the Buffet Group then the Buffet Group was acquired by another financial group and currently the Buffet Group is one of the largest ( the 2nd largest) in the world.( Buffet Crampon, Besson, B&S, Antoine Courtois, Hans Hoyer, J. Keilwerth, Melton Meinl Weston, J. Scherzer, W. Schreiber and Powell. )

The brand , being one of the brands in the top market segment, has had the same problems which brought Selmer to restructure the company.

Companies which can relay on cheaper instruments may have felt the pinch a little less. Currently (I am told) there are good sales for all the high segment in the wind industry.

The Buffet Group has just opened a showroom in one of the most expensive areas of Amsterdam ( I don't know if they have Keilwerth on display too) but that is not something one does lightly...

I don't see them having more problems than most, in fact, lately there were people here trying to buy a soprano and found it difficult because they were in short supply and high demand.

My name is Al Maniscalco and as of October 2011, I am the Group Product Manager for Julius Keilwerth Saxophones.

After reading numerous posts, questions, and comments with hearsay and unsubstantiated claims, I am writing to set the record straight about the current status of Julius Keilwerth Saxophones. In the fall of 2010 Keilwerth was purchased by Buffet Crampon in an acquisition that included Schreiber Musical Instruments as well. As of January 2012, Buffet Crampon has become Buffet Group which includes five manufacturing brands of woodwind and brass instruments - Buffet Crampon, Besson, Antoine Courtois, Julius Keilwerth, and Schreiber.

JULIUS KEILWERTH SAXOPHONES ARE IN PRODUCTION in Markneukirchen, Germany, and are being distributed worldwide by Buffet Group subsidiaries in the U.S., Japan, Europe, and China.

SX90R Alto and Tenors are in production and available in the following models:
Gold Lacquer
Black Nickel
Vintage
Shadow (alto, tenor, and baritone)

SX90 Soprano and Baritone Saxophones are in production and available in the following models:
JK1300-8-0 - Soprano / one piece straight / lacquer
JK1300-5B-0 - Soprano / one piece straight / black nickel
JK4300-8-0 - Baritone / Low Bb / lacquer
JK4310-8-0 - Baritone / Low A / lacquer

All EX Model saxophones have been discontinued

ALL SX Model saxophones are manufactured in GERMANY.

The Dave Liebman Soprano saxophone was produced as a limited edition. All that were produced have been sold. Future production is in discussion.

You can purchase Keilwerth Saxophones from ANY authorized Buffet Group dealer.

I appreciate reading the many comments of support and enthusiasm for Keilwerth and want to assure you that we (Buffet Group) are committed to the continued growth and success of this brand. We need YOUR support and encourage you to please spread the word and share this information!!

A new official website will be online soon as will official facebook, twitter, and you-tube pages.

Please address any inquiries to [email protected].
Thank you again for your interest and support of Julius Keilwerth Saxophones!!

 

[buddy lee]

All I know is, it took me 6 months to sell my nearly-mint used SX90R. Ended up selling it for $2800. There weren't even a lot of tire kickers or people making lowball offers, just silence.

It took a guy vacationing in my state from Colombia who wanted it really bad.

Just seems like there's not very much interest in this brand in the US for whatever reason.

 

[milandro]

That may very well be but the same is true of other brands (albeit no longer in production) such as B&S.

Every country has its peculiarity and hors they like or like to hate

 

[Budget Explosion]

Other than the wider egos why have the market seemed to reflect these horns?

Huh? Not sure what that means.

Anyhow, my experience is: When I read descriptions from Keilwerth-Lovers touting the glorious Keilwerth sound - I'm convinced! - this is exactly what I'm looking for from a sax!..but when I try out the SX90r horns, they play stuffy and dull to me.

 

[milandro]

Huh? Not sure what that means.

Anyhow, my experience is: When I read descriptions from Keilwerth-Lovers touting the glorious Keilwerth sound - I'm convinced! - this is exactly what I'm looking for from a sax!..but when I try out the SX90r horns, they play stuffy and dull to me.

It is always possible that the horn(s) that you've tried weren't well regulated?

I have had a number of the older ones and they are the only brand that comes close to my King Super 20 (for me)

Anyway, now they have the MKX

but even before...

 

[buddy lee]

Huh? Not sure what that means.

Anyhow, my experience is: When I read descriptions from Keilwerth-Lovers touting the glorious Keilwerth sound - I'm convinced! - this is exactly what I'm looking for from a sax!..but when I try out the SX90r horns, they play stuffy and dull to me.

That was not my experience with the SX90R I owned... my issue with it was the sound seemed to go way far away from me, and had very little core. Just way too big and spread for what I was looking for.

I know there are people out there who covet this, I'm just not one of them. Different strokes.

However, stuffy and dull it was not.

 

[vbluesman]

Keilwerth tenors can be perceived as stuffy, dull and too spread because of the bore of the instrument. A mouthpiece with some baffle and a medium or small chamber can help immensely.

 

[Budget Explosion]

It is always possible that the horn(s) that you've tried weren't well regulated?

No doubt...they could have had leaks...and I haven't played many.

 

[milandro]

No doubt...they could have had leaks...and I haven't played many.

I spoke to a shopkeeper who carries them and he told me that ofte, Keilwerth horns ( like Selmers ) hardly ever come to the shop and don't need anything done to them in the way of regulation (Unlike Yamaha and Yanagisawa ).

So it is always possible that a shopkeeper just puts the horn on display but doesn't do the necessary preparatory work (I agree no horn should ever leave the factory without being " perfectly" adjusted but it happens very often) to let the horn give its best.

I hear that this thing affects clarinets and flutes too ( the latter all brands aside from Muramatsu which gathers much prais for how well it is adjusted when it gets into the shop).

By the way, I think that many feel the keys are big but also because the pearls are really big AND CONCAVE on the Keilwerths and the springs are really " positive" but I don't feel that the spread is any bigger than my Super 20.

I am currently having a ball with a Toneking Special that I bought for sale. I'd be very happy to play it all the time it will be with me before passing it on.

I like it very much!

 

[JayeLID]

I think even in their 'golden days', the JK's were always sort of a niche player's horn.

As a seller, I can say that modern JK's (not brand new ones, just ones from say, the 90's and newer) have a few albatrosses around their necks and this has been so for a couple of decades. I am not saying I subscribe to these, am just pointing out they exist and are quite widespread:

1) Intonation is flexy so they are not a good Classical or Music Major horn. If they are not a good Classical/Music Major horn...then they are not a choice for folks who will be playing varied musical genres.

2) the Stephen Howard reviews - do NOT minimize this, the effect of those reviews were actually staggering; to the degree where the company back in around '09 or so was actually aware of them and the possible effects. (While I have zero doubt Stephen reported what he found, I can tell you....in the dozen or so modern JK's I have serviced, I have never found anything approaching what he reported.) Yet, internet being what internet is....these things catch like wildfire.
I have lost count of the number of convos I have had where folks were discussing their short list and I said 'why not JK ?" ...and the reply was ALWAYS along the lines of 'the toneholes". Always.

So I will throw this into the mix, here. These issues have been sticking to the brand, whether valid or not, for a long time. Which, IMHO is too bad. In a sea of contemporary sax sameness...JK's are unique.

Now...an interesting question I would have (and perhaps this has been answered here already, as I do not peruse the JK forum much) is: have the horns made in the past few years, after the various resturcturings....changed in quality over the ones which were made from say, 2000-2010-ish ?

 

[johnebravo]

Quote Originally Posted by Classax

Other than the wider egos why have the market seemed to reflect these horns?

Huh? Not sure what that means.

I assumed he meant "ergos" and "reject" . . . but it's always good when you use the words you actually meant to use, instead of somewhat different words with completely different meanings.

 

[Grumps]

Just seems like there's not very much interest in this brand in the US for whatever reason.

First time I played a Keilwerth, it was one of the old ones. Suddenly I seemed compelled to march with it. Like a proud Conn sax of old, but with just the fist (and no velvet glove). The last time I played one... one of the new ones... I quickly moved to the next horn on the table. Just like any of the meh horns out there today.

 

[adamk]

My 1st tenor was a new Armstrong Heritage ( Couf Keilwerth).
I still have it but prefer my 156 Buescher because of it's even scale.

 

[Instrument Attic]

Unfortunately they seem to have a number of things working against them, the Buffet Group buyout being just one.

My old ca. 1990 Keilwerth from their golden era was a great horn. That's what Whalum played forever, not their newer offerings. Now they've lost him as an endorser.

Then I heard from a store owner they have no motivation to stock them, because the US dealer cost is higher than what a customer can buy it directly for on Thomann. For example:

SX90R tenor on wwbw $6733, same as other US retailers

SX90R tenor on Thomann, $4279

 

[Dr G]

That was not my experience with the SX90R I owned... my issue with it was the sound seemed to go way far away from me, and had very little core. Just way too big and spread for what I was looking for.

I know there are people out there who covet this, I'm just not one of them. Different strokes.

However, stuffy and dull it was not.

The issue of projection, spread, etc. will differ in whether it matters from player to player - especially when considering whether one plays into a mic or not.

Ergo-wise, I didn't like the feel of the pearls on the few that I played. Yes, different strokes...

 

[milandro]

Why is the Buffet Group detrimental to Keilwerth? ( Buffet had been working for years already with Keiwerth , Schreiber making their cheaper clarinets and Keilwerth making at some point one of the Buffet Saxophones)

If Buffet wouldn't have bought Keilwerth they would have closed shop as many other companies did.

As for this thread

This other thread here ( started only last year) says : Keilwerth seems to be getting more and more followers so which is it? :twisted:

https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showt...-seems-to-be-getting-more-and-more-followers-)

I'm a keilwerth fan and has been for many years now.
IMHO it's been one of the most underrated horns you can find. It's a lot of horn for the money!

More people seems to find their love for keilwerths.

I recently followed an ebay auction with a keilwerth that may have fetched a record price (for a keilwerth in need of an overhaul).
The saxophone in question has a few cracks in the key guard, which is more common than not. It's otherwise in perfect physical condition but it most likely needs at least new pads, cork and felt. It would probably benefit from a complete overhaul. Just my guesstimate.

It fetched $1560 USD!
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-TH...m43663.l44720&nordt=true&rt=nc&orig_cvip=true

This put's it more in line with the price of some of the top makers with the best reputation. And this is where Keilwerth deserves to be!

to which the US representative answered

Dear Bkenes,

Thank you for your kind comments and compliments!

All the best!

Ergo-wise, I didn't like the feel of the pearls on the few that I played. Yes, different strokes...

This is something that I do understand , it feels strange but then one gets used to it.
\

By the way, I think that many feel the keys are big AND CONCAVE but also because the pearls are really big on the Keilwerts and the springs are really " positive" but I don't feel that the spread is any bigger than my Super 20.

 

[Reet McVouty]

It's all about marketing. Keilworth's are not well marketed here in the U.S.. I don't know of a Store here in Rochester that stocks them and if your're like me you want to play one before buying it. And, I'm also not willing to order off the internet and do the whole shipping back and forth thing either. Then there's the cost, the cheapest Keilworth tenor on WWBW is $6300, the most expensive Yamaha is $4900.

 

[milandro]

Ahem...for what is worth .....it is Keilwerth

the cheapest tenor Keilwerth at Sax.co.uk (you get to pay no tax from the UK to the US)

https://www.sax.co.uk/saxophones-shop-by-size-tenor-saxophones.irc?catHdrId=36003667,36003676

is $3,863.09 the most expensive is $5,659.11

The most expensive Yamaha

Yamaha YTS-875EXGP

Custom - Tenor Saxophone - Gold Plated

$9,795.42

 

[Dr G]

It's all about marketing. Keilworth's are not well marketed here in the U.S.. I don't know of a Store here in Rochester that stocks them and if your're like me you want to play one before buying it. And, I'm also not willing to order off the internet and do the whole shipping back and forth thing either. Then there's the cost, the cheapest Keilworth tenor on WWBW is $6300, the most expensive Yamaha is $4900.

What're Selmer-Paris horns going for these days?