[Elecmuso]

OK, so I'm at the point where I'd like to up the tempo of a couple of bop tunes. I figure keeping my fingers on the pearls and not pushing too hard would be a good place to start. I can do this though it takes focus and I imagine that after a couple of weeks my fingers will be used to this. But I have a couple of questions:

Ultimately is the aim to have the fingers (for the most part) pretty much resting on the pearls at all times or in reality do most experienced players actually disconnect the finger slightly from the pearl when the key is open? I have already noticed that keeping the fingers touching the pearls tends to result in a smoother 'slurred sound' between notes as the pad is actually depressed at a lesser velocity and therefore the pitch changes less abruptly as the pad closes. ie. It takes time for the finger to start to move versus a finger that hovers above which has already accelerated to a decent speed by the time it touches the pearl and starts to close the tone hole. Perhaps therefore this is a stylistic choice too.

When using the LH palm keys should the fingers continue to hover above their assigned keys/pearls or is it normal practice for them to 'leave that area' whilst the palm keys are in use? If not the latter then I suspect the method of depressing the palm keys in my case needs to be reviewed.

 

[RandyJ]

Don't get hung up on techniques, just practice (various arpeggios, etc.) to increase your speed and dexterity. Through the years (and currently) there have been many many tremendous players that used flat fingers, slap fingers, etc.

 

[Elecmuso]

That was quick! Thanks Randy. Yes I had noticed a few good players actually had 'bad technique' (perhaps the wrong phrase). Still I want to increase the tempo and I think just playing the head over and over for me is not the most efficient way of achieving this. You are right of course - arpeggios and scales are a big part of it and currently I'm spending about 2/3 of my time on these. At the moment I'm doing these (and the heads) at a slower rate whilst focussing on trying to keep my fingers resting on the pearls. I find that actually keeping the fingers touching is difficult. Keeping them a few mm away not so hard. Particulalry difficult when I need to use the LH palm keys.

 

[RandyJ]

Quit "trying to keep your fingers resting on the pearls" let your body mechanics take care of that. In other words forget about your finger placement and position and 'focus' on playing the music. You fingers, wrists, arms..... are going to 'work' the best when you let them do the work the way YOUR body wants them to.

 

[mfry]

I disagree somewhat, Randy. There's nothing wrong with developing good technique, and while a horn with good ergonomics and placed in the right position should encourage the hands into the most efficient position, that's just a start, there's still plenty of opportunity for bad mechanics that hold back technique. Better to learn properly the first time.

OP, I found the easiest way to keep my fingers from getting too far away from the keys is to keep my little fingers touching (the G# and C keys usually I think), the other fingers fall into place fine. You don't need to obsess over it constantly, but while you're practicing technique, it's not going to hurt you to practice it with a minimum of superfluous motion.

Still I want to increase the tempo and I think just playing the head over and over for me is not the most efficient way of achieving this.

Actually, it probably is. Play it perfectly as slowly as you need to. A lot.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I used to glue my fingers to the keys to overcome "finger flapping", that was a bit drastic. You could use double sided tape.

 

[Mark Fleming]

I think about this once-in-a-while, mostly because my practice room has a big mirror in it. Then I'll see some video of a great player lifting his/her fingers about as far away from the keys as possible (usually the pinky fingers). But I am reminded of rock guitar players who transition from a super fast lick to a couple of whanging windmill manuevers (essentially taking his fingers as far from the strings as possible), and then back to the screamingly fast solo. Same with piano players. During a short pause, they tend to lift their hands higher than is really necessary.

While keeping one's fingers "close" would seem to be the most efficient method, there seems to be a universal desire to move away at times. It's probably more than showmanship. It may create tension in the player's mind. It may flex and relax muscles before returning to another demanding part. It may help interpret timing. Maybe all of the above and more.

Unfortunately, my theory results in a maxim that people who love rules will hate, i.e., "keep your fingers as close as they need to be." Where's the anxiety in that?

Mark

 

[Elecmuso]

Cheers everyone - lots to think over.
Still I am left with this question:
When an experienced player is playing a fast bop tune do the fingers gently rest on all the pearls or do they hover above just slightly? I realise this would be a generalisation but their must be a 'rule of thumb' for those in the process of developing their technique.
Also the other question regarding LH palm key operation and moving the fingers away from the pearls. Perhaps that should be a whole other thread.

 

[edwin]

Thanks for this thread, Elecmuso, it's interesting reading the discussion. I've been trying to get the hang of this as well and my fingers seem to "want" to stay a bit away from the pearls. Watching recordings of Charlie Parker play, his fingers don't seem to move that much even when he plays very quickly, presumably because they are on (or very close to, hard to tell which) the pearls all the time so the distance they move is small.

On the other hand, I've watched my teacher close up. He can play at blistering speed but his fingers don't rest particularly close to the pearls at all. He agrees with the proposition that keeping them close makes sense when you are trying to develop speed, but evidently nobody made this suggestion to him while he was learning and he figured out how to be fast without it.

 

[saxmusicguy]

Then I'll see some video of a great player lifting his/her fingers about as far away from the keys as possible (usually the pinky fingers).

Here's one example:

 

[Elecmuso]

Whilst keeping the fingers close would definitely help I'd just like to know what the majority of experienced players do. I'm beginning to wonder if speed is more about developing a light touch - ie. not pushing down hard on the pearls - just enough to close the pad, so that releasing the pad is also easier.

In order to let this happen you would need to have a horn that is well adjusted - light springs and easily sealing pads I suppose.

My horn has recently been overhauled (by me!) which has been very educational and I am now confident in the process (actually it's my third horn if you include my clarinet). The downside is that initially I was playing with a horn that had a few leaks and I was probably over-compensating for that by pressing harder - a habit I now need to undo. Having a better embrochure for the full range of the horn will also allow me to relax a bit more.

No doubt it's a combination of many factors but knowing what all these are enables one to focus individually on each 'problem area' during practice.

BTW: My primary instrument is piano which I learnt from the age of 6 (nearly 40 years ago!). I was taught technique properly which has sometimes given me an advantage over others on that instrument. Having it is certainly no disadvantage! Sure you've still got to let the music come from within and actually under the pressure of a public performance is when I find creativity suffers the most on piano.

One great thing about saxophone (for me) is that there are less expectations from others (including myself) - one of the reasons I am enjoying it so much.

 

[maddenma]

So, I'm a close fingered player. Doesn't seem to mean much though.

If you look at Charlie Parker on YouTube, you can barely tell his fingers are moving. No question about him being fast.

I played in a band with Jerry Bergonzi soloing this summer. He's flying fingers all the way -- also no question that he's fast.

Saw Joe Lovano last Friday night at Carnegie Hall -- another flying fingers player -- also quite fast and even quotes Bird riffs from time to time.

Guess is depends on what you get used to, but I suspect it's easier if you keep the fingers close to the keys.

 

[zacworld]

I agree with the earlier comments that fast technique is accomplished by many different players with fingers in all kinds of different heights above the keys. That said, relaxing your fingers while you play will keep them close to the keys. It sounds contradictory to being able to play fast, but it's not, it works. When I was learning I used to watch a great tenor player who used to live in my area. His fingers were lightening-fast, and they were the most relaxed looking fingers you'd ever see even as he was playing ridiculously fast (and clean). AND his fingertips always rested right on the pearls.

 

[Elecmuso]

Thanks for all the recent responses (southern hemisphere kicking in?). Still no-one has touched upon the LH palm key question. So whilst I have your attention..(!)

 

[mfry]

I feel pretty strongly that you should be lightly touching the palm keys (or very nearly so). But everybody has different sized hands and all saxes are designed a little differently so with your fingers on the pearls and thumb on the thumbrest you might not be there. I bend and/or build up with cork the palm keys on all my horns to fit. When your left hand is on the pearls in a relaxed position, you should be lightly touching the palm keys while you play. The important thing is to keep the motion to the fingers as much as possible. If you're too far away from the palm keys you'll find yourself needing to move your whole arm to get to them. Close enough and in the right position and you use only the base of your fingers.

 

[milandro]

well, this was always one of my problems and it comes back when I happen not to play for some time. If I am uncertain, insecure, about playing , somehow, I stretch my fingers while if I am more confident tend to stay close to the keys, more so on alto than tenor for example.

 

[Elecmuso]

I do some practice tonight and have a think about all this, especially the latter bits about the palm keys.

BTW: I've been practicing in a room in front of a big window that acts nicely as a 'mirror' when the room is brightly lit and it is dark outside. Hopefully my neighbour is not looking in 'cos I won't see him!

Cheers

Greg

 

[piwikiwi]

Practice slowly and consciously until you do it automatically. I also revisited my technique everyone few months, mostly because I've then reached a plateau in my playing. I take a good look at my technique while playing 8 notes at 60/70 bpm and I try to improve it and then work up to tempo

 

[Elecmuso]

I've just spent a couple of hours on this. Though I only started focussing on this yesterday really I definitely can see +ve changes.

First of all I find focussing on keeping fingers on the pearls and keeping a light touch relaxes me a lot. It also means I move around less - this may sound strange but for me it simply 'calms me'.

It also seems to have helped me 'get to know' my horn as I became more aware of the ability to slur a note's pitch when changing from one note to the next (using the keys as well as embrochure etc.) - I found this really helped in a couple of ballads.

Donna Lee (which I'm using as my 'test tune') I can now play OK at 200bpm (previously comfortable at around 170bpm). 240bpm is a real stretch but is almost there apart from a couple of phrases - but previously I would not have even attempted it. I really do put this down to the attention to keeping the fingers on the pearls. Though I am not thinking about the fingers at the fast tempos I reckon there is definitely less 'flapping about'. I reduced it back to 160bpm to allow me to consciously focus on the 'fingers touching pearls' thing.

I also had a think about the palm keys. I find that by pushing the horn forward with the RH thumb when operating these allows me to 'push my LH wrist downwards' thereby allowing to keep my fingers curved while operating and maintaining contact with the palm keys. It's not instinctive yet but I think this will help a lot. This technique may well be common knowledge but I haven't had a lesson for some 30 years so it's a matter of 'self discovery' (plus help from here).

So there you go - for what it's worth my findings. I suppose is really is a matter of finding 'what works for you' but I think in the last couple of days I have definitely progressed.

Thanks for the help.

 

[maddenma]

So, regarding the palm keys, I believe keeping them close at hand so I don't have to lift my fingers from the upper stack key touches. That said, I don't want them so close I'm actually touching them while not using them. I don't even want to lightly brush them, but still keep them close.

On some horns (Keilwerths?) you can adjust the height of the palm keys without mods. On others you need to add some height to the keys with resin, cork, sugru, or some other material. A tech can also cut the key and raise or lower the height, but that's a permanent mod you need to think a couple times about doing before committing to it.

Here's an example of what I've had done to my sop using an epoxy resin to raise the key heights. It's not permanent, comes off with a little heat, but makes a world of difference. I have pretty large hands, so just dropping my wrist wasn't cutting it.