[mjs10]

Can we strip off a plated horn to bare brass? Would that affect the sound?

 

[DougR]

Where is Gary when you need him?

Try the search thing.

 

[JimD]

See above but, in a nutshell, if by plated you mean gold or silver, probably but don't bother, if you mean lacquer, yes. Will it affect the sound? No. I declare this post answered.

 

[jbtsax]

These two links to studies by Pyle on french horn bells may provide part of the answer.

http://scitation.aip.org/getabs/ser...000690000S1000S37000001&idtype=cvips&gifs=yes
http://www.acoustics.org/press/133rd/2amu4.html

If the inside of the sax body including the tone holes is also plated, removing the plating inside the bore will have a greater effect than removing the plating on the exterior since the smoothness and porosity of the bore may be affected especially around the toneholes. According Schilke's paper on trumpet acoustics silver plating is only .0005" thick, whereas a good lacquer job is around .007". For comparison a sheet of writing paper is .004" making the silver plate 1/8 as thick as a sheet of paper while the lacquer is almost equal to two sheets. The paper on trumpet construction can be viewed here.

http://www.dallasmusic.org/schilke/Brass Clinic.html

John

 

[jbtsax]

Try the search thing.

Also see tjontheroad and fballatore's posts in this thread: http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=62152

John

 

[NatureColor]

lol. i had a barebrass vi before and then i gold plated the whole thing and there were significant differences. gold adds the dark rich quality and because gold has to plate over silver, it gives the bright quality of the silver when it's pushed. also, it is much centered comparing to the barebrass.

 

[mjs10]

The reason i am asking is that i bought a selmer mark 6 that had been replated and thinking of restoring it to its original state.

The problem is I have never owned a selmer before and this is my first time so i dont know whats the original sound like.

The other thing is I dont know whether its silver or nickel plated, it looks white shiny like looking in the mirror. Heres the picture.

One more thing, would striping the silver plate restore the engraving? The engraving looks quite thin. But its still sharp, all i know for a re lacqed horn, the engraving will looked blurred. But this one is sharp.

 

[Gordon (NZ)]

Can we strip off a plated horn to bare brass? Would that affect the sound?

You cannot replate or relacquer a sax without doing a substantial repad/overhaul. It is highly unlikely that anything other than the repad/overhaul made any difference to the sound. The topic has been discussed to death many times in this forum, including very recently. I hardly think there is any more to add at present. So do a search, or especially see the huge threads – Did you not notice them?!! - currently immediately beside this one, i.e.

http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=61212

http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=42432

 

[mjs10]

See above but, in a nutshell, if by plated you mean gold or silver, probably but don't bother, if you mean lacquer, yes. Will it affect the sound? No. I declare this post answered.

its definately replated, the guy who sold me this horn told me its silver plated. But i dont know the difference between silver plated or nickel plated. The horn looks white shiny like looking in the mirror.

 

[mjs10]

Thanks for the link guys, i did try to do a research about this one but I still dont get the answer of my question. The general question about this matter is whether relacquering or replating will affect the sound...But the thing is I have a replated horn and I can see that it is replated, because theres a very little section on the key and underneath the rolled edge of the bell that looks striped off that it reveals the brass color behind it. I am just curious if we could strip a replated horn and restoring it to its original state (bare brass), and if thats possible?

Someone say dont bother, yes i would probably not bother about it but again I am just curious, i mean, maybe i would in the future...

 

[paulio]

I'm intruiged as to how you would remove plating back to bare brass, given that the platings are generally pretty inert a chemical strip clearly wouldn't be an option, leaving only mechanical means - could you imagine the fiddle around tone holes and posts to get rid of every bit of plate without wearing neigbouring areas away entirely?

Of course it may be possible to brass plate over silver or gold, that could start a whole new subforum discussing the effects on tone.

 

[princeganon]

its definately replated, the guy who sold me this horn told me its silver plated. But i dont know the difference between silver plated or nickel plated. The horn looks white shiny like looking in the mirror.

sounds like nickel. silver isn't quite as shiny and tends to tarnish.

 

[kymarto]

Thanks for the link guys, i did try to do a research about this one but I still dont get the answer of my question. The general question about this matter is whether relacquering or replating will affect the sound...But the thing is I have a replated horn and I can see that it is replated, because theres a very little section on the key and underneath the rolled edge of the bell that looks striped off that it reveals the brass color behind it. I am just curious if we could strip a replated horn and restoring it to its original state (bare brass), and if thats possible?

Someone say dont bother, yes i would probably not bother about it but again I am just curious, i mean, maybe i would in the future...

The answer to your question is that, yes, lacquer or plating affects the sound of the horn, but that effect is so miniscule that it is totally insignificant. Don't be misled by studies on brass instruments, in which radiation from the bell can have a just-perceptible effect on the sound radiation from the horn. Go look at the 15-odd pages in the recent threads on this subject if you want elaboration.

Toby

 

[rs1sensen]

Looks like nickel based on the pics, but I could be wrong.

Wow, people obviously can't read what the actual topic of your thread was. They get a little feisty when people start talking about lacquer and plating.

The process to remove the plate could cause an impact on your horn since the only method to do so would be mechanical buffing (that I know of, at least. I could be wrong). Whenever you buff the horn, you are taking away metal (duh). It would be nearly impossible to not also take away some of the brass in doing this procedure, and in the more tricksy portions, like around the tone holes, you could cause significant damage. The plating itself is actually offering a certain amount of protection to your horn and I would recommend you keep it on unless you have a significant reason for doing so.

 

[Gordon (NZ)]

I thought plating could be removed by the same process as electroplating, but with the polarity of the electrodes reversed???

Is that only with certain types of plating?

 

[bruce bailey]

Find a local plater and ask him. I know they can unplate them by reversing the polarity. The big question is WHY? That horn looks too good to change.

 

[Gordon (NZ)]

....Wow, people obviously can't read what the actual topic of your thread was. They get a little feisty when people start talking about lacquer and plating..

Not at all!

Part of the original question was "Would that [stripping off the plating]affect the sound?"

Surface finish happens to be part of what the body is made from. And whether the material of the body affects tone or not just happens to be arguably the most discussed topic in this forum.

This part of the original question is indeed read correctly, and the answer is most certainly not a straight forward one, because of all sax topics, it is possibly the one where theory and testing most collide with belief and misunderstood anecdotes.

 

[NatureColor]

i wouldn't do it, but if you want the sax to play just alittle free-er and isn't afraid to have a sax that can rust easily and.. if you have the money and an excellent technician then sure go fir it, but i wouldn't bother!

 

[rs1sensen]

Not at all!

Part of the original question was "Would that [stripping off the plating]affect the sound?"

Surface finish happens to be part of what the body is made from. And whether the material of the body affects tone or not just happens to be arguably the most discussed topic in this forum.

Just to clarify my comment...Much of the information given dealt specifically with either re-lacquering or stripping lacquer (which can be done chemically with little actual damage to the horn). Even as far as plating goes, it wasn't so much a question of whether or not plating effects the sound of the sax, it was whether the process of removing the plating would effect the sound (or at least, so I took it as). Although now that I reread it, I can see how it could be interpreted as you did. Both aspects could certainly take part in the question, although I personally would consider the answer "No, the plating does not make the saxophone sound differently than if it were a bare brass finish, but, removing the plating would effect the sound."

It just seemed to me like much of the thread had taken a slightly wrong direction and was treating it the same as the other exhaustive dead-horse discussions which have taken place. I really meant no insult to any posters, and I hope this reply isn't taken that way either. I apologize for any miscommunication.

 

[Gordon (NZ)]

"... No, the plating does not make the saxophone sound differently than if it were a bare brass finish, but, removing the plating would effect the sound."

That certainly creates a misunderstanding to me.

What exactly are you saying? That the process of removing the plating (even if done by switching electrode polarity in the plating process)alters the brass in such a way that the sax would then have a different tone from a sax which had never been plated in the first place?

If so, I would be interested in the details of this phenomenon.

BTW, even if the plating is removed by buffing, some comparative weight figures given somewhere in this forum suggest that this method can remove plating with negligible loss of brass. When the brass colour appears in any given area, you simply stop buffing that area.