[skeller047]

This thread is why people leave SOTW. Lotta heat, no light. None of it useful to a potential purchaser of saxophones.

 

[Perio]

Why should I have to do that? I don't know and I don't care. Why do you?

Because Leadbetter, as a business owner, has cast doubt on his integrity by claiming it takes him 60 hours to assemble a saxophone. Was he inflating the amount of time? Is the product so poor it requires a lot of remediation? Is he a less than competent tech?

 

[PCorneliusJazz]

Because Leadbetter, as a business owner, has cast doubt on his integrity by claiming it takes him 60 hours to assemble a saxophone. Was he inflating the amount of time? Is the product so poor it requires a lot of remediation? Is he a less than competent tech?

Why don’t you email him and ask? Believe it or not, I don’t work for him. You said something that was false (the horns are “made in China at a lowball factory”) and I corrected it.

I wouldn’t think the quality of his tech skills would be in question considering the talent of his clientele. But people are subjective, and different cats prefer different repairmen. I used to use Bill Singer exclusively until he left NYC. Now I go to John. I find his work excellent, as good as Bill’s. My overhauled Mark 6 plays amazingly.

have you played these saxophones yourself and did you find the quality poor? What are you playing on now?

if you’re seriously asking about the quality of the horns in good faith, then I can tell you that they play as well as either of my vintage Selmers, and better than my modern Selmer (series 3). As to how they will age, I don’t know.

 

[Dr G]

Okay, they are Made in Taiwan. I’ll accept your claims.

Just resolve why the horns are bathed and why he claimed 60 hours to assemble. Then I’ll be gone.

Please don’t wait. Just leave.

 

[Saxaholic]

This thread is why people leave SOTW. Lotta heat, no light. None of it useful to a potential purchaser of saxophones.

This. The witch hunt is ridiculous, and when proven wrong, the mob scrambles away silently.

 

[10mfan]

This thread is why people leave SOTW. Lotta heat, no light. None of it useful to a potential purchaser of saxophones.

Man, unfortunately, you nailed that on the head!!!!!
Sad to say it, but this site is going WAY downhill. Hopefully, things will get better….

 

[SimonJazzSax]

Man, unfortunately, you nailed that on the head!!!!!
Sad to say it, but this site is going WAY downhill. Hopefully, things will get better….

It's not just SOTW but a reflection on society and how we are collectively behaving as a species in many aspects. It is unfortunate, and I hope it will get better as well.

Skepticism can be healthy, but some serious research and facts should be in hand before going and spreading information.

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk

 

[Perio]

I look at the more established members of this forum, particularly Dr G, as being the reason more people don’t join and or stay on SOTW. They’re the ones who demean, belittle, and drive off those with fewer posts.

I respectfully established very concretely that John Leadbetter overstated his assembly time and absurdly bathes his saxophones. (I still think there’s something very fishy with the origin of his saxophones.) There is no more appropriate thread to call him out on these concerns than this thread. Consumers have a right to know these things.

But because of Dr G, I’m leaving this forum and will warn my friends and students against SOTW. There’s no sense in participating in this nonsense.

 

[Samdini]

I'll try to offer some objectivity. I ordered an Artist Edition tenor from John (owner of JL Woodwinds) 1/08/23. It was promptly shipped. When I played the horn, there were a few really sweet notes that came out of it (that sounded like his recordings), most pretty unremarkable and the F# and A2 were super dead (I'm guessing one or more significant leaks). I contacted John and sent it back. I agreed to try another Artist Edition tenor John said he'd send one right away (said he had some in stock). This is where my issue with John came in. He didn't send a replacement. I emailed John several times with no response. When I emailed I wanted a refund, I got a call from John. He, again, promised to send me another horn. Weeks later, and a few more promises when I called him, still no horn. After about 2 months of no replacement horn (even though 3 were listed as available on his website and 1 sold) I ordered an Ishimori from Brian at GetASax. I then emailed John for a refund and indicated I found his customer service disappointing and that I ordered an Ishimori. John promptly responded and indicated my refund was being processed and mentioned his shop is the biggest retailer for Ishimori. Just under a week later, I did fortunately get my credit card refunded. What I can say is I understand a horn can be put out of adjustment during shipping. I can't be 100% sure where his horns are produced, and I don't really care. What I care about is a good playing horn and acceptable customer service. I never got the chance to try another of John's horns, so I can't comment on their potential. While some may disagree, regardless of how busy John is, almost 2 months of promising a prompt replacement during phone calls and no responses to my emails is unacceptable and kind of disrespectful. For anyone interested, I got the Ishimori yesterday. I have about 5 hours on it. The horn I received in amazing. The tone is exceptional. The horn is super even up and down and the tuning is excellent. It sounds like I expected the Artist Edition to sound based on John's recordings of him playing an Artist Edition and playing an Ishimori. Okay, those are my experiences. Take from them what you will. Please don't use my comments as a springboard for unproductive debate.

 

[ZootTheSim]

I look at the more established members of this forum, particularly Dr G, as being the reason more people don’t join and or stay on SOTW.

Dr. G's actually one of the reasons I keep coming back. His posts are always interesting and very knowledgeable, like so many other seasoned members here. Meanwhile, membership on SOTW keeps growing.

 

[PCorneliusJazz]

I look at the more established members of this forum, particularly Dr G, as being the reason more people don’t join and or stay on SOTW. They’re the ones who demean, belittle, and drive off those with fewer posts.

I respectfully established very concretely that John Leadbetter overstated his assembly time and absurdly bathes his saxophones. (I still think there’s something very fishy with the origin of his saxophones.) There is no more appropriate thread to call him out on these concerns than this thread. Consumers have a right to know these things.

But because of Dr G, I’m leaving this forum and will warn my friends and students against SOTW. There’s no sense in participating in this nonsense.

Human nature is so interesting. Admitting one has been wrong seems to be so difficult once the heels are dug in, especially in internet discussions. It almost becomes a denial of self.

The clarity and perspective that a nice glass of wine and 35 minutes of Dexter can bring is amazing as well.

I regret getting worked up in this thread, and apologize to anyone who found my posts abrasive. It's not really my personality (as anyone who knows me in person will tell you) and It all seems so silly. Either a horn is made in Taiwan or it isn't. We know for a fact that these are. My mind just got boggled that some folks won't believe their own eyes. But I clearly went down an unnecessary rabbit hole, so mea coppola, everyone. peace to all. 🙏

 

[Samdini]

Human nature is so interesting. Admitting one has been wrong seems to be so difficult once the heels are dug in, especially in internet discussions. It almost becomes a denial of self.

The clarity and perspective that a nice glass of wine and 35 minutes of Dexter can bring is amazing as well.

I regret getting worked up in this thread, and apologize to anyone who found my posts abrasive. It's not really my personality (as anyone who knows me in person will tell you) and It all seems so silly. Either a horn is made in Taiwan or it isn't. We know for a fact that these are. My mind just got boggled that some folks won't believe their own eyes. But I clearly went down an unnecessary rabbit hole, so mea coppola, everyone. peace to all. 🙏

A glass of wine and some Dexter Gordon. Nice reminder we're all saxophone brothers and sisters. Well done!

 

[scrollshank]

For those of you who haven't been around long, there have been a lot of threads along these lines. This one has been worse than the others, but there have been similar threads about the Tenor Madness horns and Boston Sax shop necks for sure.

The basic formula: Repair shop imports horns from (usually) Taiwan, puts a bunch of work into them then sells them with a markup. Someone comments on how great they play then others chime in basically saying they aren't worth the money, the shop is overstating the amount of work they do, the shop is lying about the country of origin. It seems the fastest way for a shop to get a negative thread on SOTW is to offer a line of boutique horns.

The bottom line is that if you want to buy one of these horns, you need to play it in person before you buy and satisfy yourself that it is worth the asking price and whatever other details you need to.

 

[Dr G]

I look at the more established members of this forum, particularly Dr G, as being the reason more people don’t join and or stay on SOTW. They’re the ones who demean, belittle, and drive off those with fewer posts.

I respectfully established very concretely that John Leadbetter overstated his assembly time and absurdly bathes his saxophones. (I still think there’s something very fishy with the origin of his saxophones.) There is no more appropriate thread to call him out on these concerns than this thread. Consumers have a right to know these things.

But because of Dr G, I’m leaving this forum and will warn my friends and students against SOTW. There’s no sense in participating in this nonsense.

Since you’re calling me out by name, I’ll respond. Else, I would not waste any water on this weed. I quote in full with emphasis added in bold italic.

I too saw with my own eyes the Sunwin posts bragging about and proclaiming the greatness of the JL Woodwind saxophones. It’s amazing that they’ve since been taken down. I don’t believe for one minute they’re not of Chinese manufacture and origin. They should be stamped Made in China. There is actually nothing wrong with Made in China.

I also saw John’s post that he was spending 60 hours per saxophone and saw the images of him bathing his saxophones on Instagram, which is as someone else said, “silly season.”

As Ben mentioned, John is hurting his credibility with his 60 hour claims, the bathing of the saxophones, his claim of mixed nationality saxophones, and his apparent request to Sunwin to delete the Facebook posts. I don’t trust John Leadbetter. He’s hiding something.

No, several members of this forum have posted links to where the horns are made. They’re made in China at a lowball factory.

@PCorneliusJazz has provided evidence to unequivocally disprove your false and defamatory claims.

Slander? You’re obviously a saxophonist and not an attorney.

Let’s deal in facts that are not disputed. Numerous individuals saw and observed:
1) Sunwin posted Facebook images and positive statements regarding JL Woodwinds’Artist saxophones. Sunwin had one or two other posts referring to another maker—Steve Goodson. In years of Facebook posts, Sunwin only posted in reference to his items, John Leadbetter and Steve Goodson. Steve Goodson praised Sunwin.
2) John Leadbetter posted a claim that he spends 60 hours assembling the saxophones he received.
3) John Leadbetter posted on Instagram images of him bathing his saxophones with their metal screws and rods in tact.

Now let’s ask some questions.
1) What is John’s relationship with Sunwin. You stated it was a bad relationship based on a defective order from three years ago. Then why would Sunwin pick and choose John Leadbetter and his Artist saxophones years later to praise on his Facebook page? Why were the overwhelmingly positive comments and images withdrawn?
2) Why did John claim his assembly took 60 hours per saxophone? What is wrong with the saxophones that John needs so much time to assemble one horn?
3) No one disputes John is an expert repairman. Why would an expert repairman bathe a saxophone nonetheless with their steel rods and screws attached?

These are not conspiracy theories. They are facts and substantive questions that deserve answers.

No one disputes that John is an expert repairman other than you.

Because Leadbetter, as a business owner, has cast doubt on his integrity by claiming it takes him 60 hours to assemble a saxophone. Was he inflating the amount of time? Is the product so poor it requires a lot of remediation? Is he a less than competent tech?

For the record, @Perio, there are rules of conduct at SotW.

These rules are specific to the SOTW forums and are in addition to the Verticalscope Terms of Use. These have now been reformatted for clarity. There are no new rules although some rules previously only written elsewhere are now included so all rules are in one place.

• You may not post any material which is spam advertising, false, defamatory…

and

• If you wish to close your account please use the Contact Us link at the bottom of the page. Do not do this via a public post (YAGE).

I wish you well, Perio, but I choose not to ignore abuse in the public forum for standing up against something so wrong as your attack on John Ledbetter.

 

[hincapiej]

The sad thing about this thread is we'll never hear ANGRYGUY talk about the credit being returned to him, or that people admit they have incorrect assumptions. No, this thread will sit here until the heat death of the universe impugning one of the most straight forward and honest people in our industry. Someone's passing impatience and mercurial anger gets carved in stone here, forever polluting someone's good name.

I will come in defence of John L. Jaice, you've played my horn, I love the thing.

I would not ever hesitate to buy a horn by word of John again. I hesitated when I first did it because I didn't know him at all. But the Tenor I bought from him was exactly what he told me it was.

 

[Benny]

I did some business with Sunwin in China for a short while, so I’ll say this…
Bearing in mind that things change and that John Leadbetter may now source his instruments from elsewhere, at the time the JL horns (including the Artist model) were coming from the Sunwin factory in China, according to Sunwin. They were complete and not in parts, at a time when JL was clearly stating that he sourced parts from numerous factories, as stated earlier in this thread.
I asked Sunwin about this specifically and he was very clear about the details right down to the pads they installed, and he had many photos of the horns, clearly showing the logo, that didn’t appear on any JL Woodwinds website, socials etc.
another fairly well known local repairer also bought some of the Pino styled horns and sold them under his own name.

I got some more information from John today. He said he sourced parts from about 10 different factories in China and Taiwan, before he picked a particular factory in Taiwan with whose quality he felt satisfied. The tube and keys are made in Taiwan. For pads he offers a choice between Pisoni Professional and Precision USA. He levels the tone holes, assembles the horns and sets them up personally at his shop on West 36th Street.

On the SBA which was the basis for his design: he's based the tube geometry off the late SBAs/transitional mark VI horns. He personally prefers not having the high F# key, but will build it in if a player wants it. The materials offered are H80 Brass, 70/30 yellow Brass, Rose Brass, Cupronickel, or German Copper. He also offers custom engraving.

I'm attaching a link to more pictures as he sent too many to post here. Take a look - most of the materials and finishes are represented, as are a variety of different engravings, and also various stages of completion of the horns (so you can see what the tone holes, tubes etc. look like before the keys are put on).

JL Woodwinds Tenor - Google Drive

Also check out the following YouTube video where he explains a bit more about the saxophones and plays a bit on one of them as well. The particular saxophone he is playing on the video is made of cupronickel.

If there are more questions I would be happy to get the answers from John.

Thank you for sharing this. You got lucky! My issue with John is his selling of cheap Chinese made saxophones such as his Pino saxophone. The saxophones can be purchased on Alibaba for a few hundred dollars, but John marks them up 10x that and sells them for over 4,000.

Congrats on your Ishimori!

 

[adjustotone]

That makes me think a little harder...I would like to know to what extent these horns (or any other boutique horns) have designs that are actually customized. What is the actual bore taper profile and diameter? Is it actually the same as an SBA? Or is it just the standard bore issued by the factory as their version of whatever horn they are cloning? What about tone hole placement and size? Any other customized aspects? To what extent could these be custom if JL has tried 10 different vendors? Trying 10 different vendors sounds like a search for a standard issue horn that plays well. Is it just a standard issue horn with various finish/material options from a particular vendor that then gets overhauled by JL? It seems like this last scenario might be the case.

 

[mmichel]

I have no idea regarding exactly how these things are customized, but a friend of mine who has been a professional sax tech for decades recently had a customer bring one in and was absolutely blown away by both the playing characteristics and the build quality.

Moreover, he's not one who tends to go in for hype and/or reputation. He's seen (and played) it all, and prefers horns that just work. For example, he recently ditched his Mark VI tenor for a YTS-380 and, while he owns many great vintage altos (including an SBA and a Super 20) he prefers to play a YAS-23.

I've been very skeptical about all these new "custom" stencils of Chinese/Taiwanese-manufactured horns, but my buddy's reaction makes me think that I may need to make a trip to Midtown to try one of these myself.

 

[adjustotone]

After I read your first paragraph I was really intrigued! Then I read your second paragraph and am scratching my head

 

[mmichel]

After I read your first paragraph I was really intrigued! Then I read your second paragraph and am scratching my head

I'm not sure I understand why.

I was just trying to relate that my buddy (who does care about things like sound, response and build quality) isn't typically seduced by things like the name stamped on the horn, or country of origin, or "buzz", or reputation. But he was nonetheless really impressed by these.

He does own a bunch of different horns (and has owned many more), but that's in large part because he's a tech who regularly buys, repairs, and sells horns.