[dctwells]

Ishimori buys their saxophones from Taiwan. The cost per saxophone is about five times higher than junky Chinese saxophones, which is where John buys his saxophones.

Ignoring the geopolitical and ethical issues associated with buying junk from China, the quality difference is huge. What John is doing is unethical and deceptive on his part, too.

I like John’s videos; he doesn’t seem like a bad guy. But his business practice of selling junk made to play is egregious.

I was under the impression John’s horns are made in Taiwan. They’re made in China? I haven’t played one so I can’t comment but I take it you have ….. what was your issue with them?

 

[Perio]

I was under the impression John’s horns are made in Taiwan. They’re made in China? I haven’t played one so I can’t comment but I take it you have ….. what was your issue with them?

No, several members of this forum have posted links to where the horns are made. They’re made in China at a lowball factory.

 

[PCorneliusJazz]

Ishimori buys their saxophones from Taiwan. The cost per saxophone is about five times higher than junky Chinese saxophones, which is where John buys his saxophones.

Ignoring the geopolitical and ethical issues associated with buying junk from China, the quality difference is huge. What John is doing is unethical and deceptive on his part, too.

I like John’s videos; he doesn’t seem like a bad guy. But his business practice of selling junk made to play is egregious.

No, several members of this forum have posted links to where the horns are made. They’re made in China at a lowball factory.

They are absolutely not. The Artist Signature saxophones have parts that are 100% made in Taiwan (just like the Ishimori), and then 100% hand assembled my John himself.

The Pino tenor has some parts made in a factory in China, and some in Taiwan, and also 100% hand assembled by John himself. The Pino actually takes him longer to build out because the parts come from different places. Just because you see images of a Chinese-made horn on Ali Baba that looks like it has similar components doesn't make it the same exact horn. Chinese factories don't respect intellectual property, as we know. You can buy "Adolph Sax" branded altos from China that look nearly identical to the Selmer Special editions that launched years ago, but it's not the same thing!

I really like the advice that Phil Barone posted earlier in the thread: don't spread rumors about things you don't know first-hand.

The Artist Signature tenors are high-quality horns that out-play anything in their price range. Loads of reputable saxophonists who know what good horns feel and sound like are buying them. Dayna Stephens just bought 3!

And regarding someone's customer service tale of woe, I'm sure there is another side to the story.

 

[raghav]

I like John’s videos; he doesn’t seem like a bad guy. But his business practice of selling junk made to play is egregious.

I've been trying to stay out of this discussion because there are obviously a lot of negative emotions running around. That said, I've had my Pino tenor for a year now and it has not needed an adjustment once. Still can whisper low Bb, and there are no signs of any leaks. The horn is as solidly built as either of my vintage Selmers.

 

[adjustotone]

I have no direct experience with JL Woodwinds but I watch his play tests and have followed some of his horns. Really I think we as a group should be supportive of innovative small shops like his. Sometimes they may get in over their heads with demand -- but my guess is patience is a virtue here.

The reason I think we should be supportive of such endeavors is that we need good players directly involved in making saxophones if we want a good result. Selmer appears to be returning to that model. The last couple of decades has shown some similar efforts by small shops customizing Asian horns that appear to have failed, which is our loss. Supply/demand will determine pricing as usual.

 

[Benjamin Allen]

They are absolutely not. The Artist Signature saxophones have parts that are 100% made in Taiwan (just like the Ishimori), and then 100% hand assembled my John himself.

The Pino tenor has some parts made in a factory in China, and some in Taiwan, and also 100% hand assembled by John himself. The Pino actually takes him longer to build out because the parts come from different places. Just because you see images of a Chinese-made horn on Ali Baba that looks like it has similar components doesn't make it the same exact horn. Chinese factories don't respect intellectual property, as we know. You can buy "Adolph Sax" branded altos from China that look nearly identical to the Selmer Special editions that launched years ago, but it's not the same thing!

I really like the advice that Phil Barone posted earlier in the thread: don't spread rumors about things you don't know first-hand.

The Artist Signature tenors are high-quality horns that out-play anything in their price range. Loads of reputable saxophonists who know what good horns feel and sound like are buying them. Dayna Stephens just bought 3!

And regarding someone's customer service tale of woe, I'm sure there is another side to the story.

Your unyielding and misinformed defense of JL Woodwinds has compelled me to respond. I have no doubt his saxophones play well. He’s a well-respected technician, but he has made outrageous claims regarding the amount of time he spends assembling them, which includes bathing them for some reason. His stated assembly times far exceed industry practices, which suggests to me he’s trying to make chicken salad out of chicken ****.

His JL Artist Series (or whatever they are called) horns were featured on and promoted by a well known Chinese maker, SunWin. The available evidence supports that those horns are of Chinese make. You’re not helping by proclaiming they are of Taiwanese manufacture when the available evidence suggests otherwise. Moreover, Leadbetter does himself a disservice proclaiming that he’s assembling a saxophone from selected parts sourced from a variety of vendors. Every saxophone vendor from Taiwan and China let’s the buyer pick and choose from preset key shapes and styles—it’s nothing special.

As for his Pino tenor saxophone, I previously told you I wouldn’t publicly share what they cost and their sourcing. I stand by that even though everyone seems to already know.

Leadbetter should be proud of his vendors and sourcing. He should advocate for them and promote them—not hide from them. Steve Goodson takes pride in sourcing from Sunwin. Sunwin reciprocates. Sunwin takes pride is JL saxophones. The missing party from this is John Leadbetter. He should be proud of his vendors.

Frankly, I wish the guy nothing but success. We need JL Woodwinds to be successful. Yes, it would help if John Leadbetter would stop hiding from his vendors and take pride in the origin of his saxophones.

 

[PCorneliusJazz]

Your unyielding and misinformed defense of JL Woodwinds has compelled me to respond. I have no doubt his saxophones play well. He’s a well-respected technician, but he has made outrageous claims regarding the amount of time he spends assembling them, which includes bathing them for some reason. His stated assembly times far exceed industry practices, which suggests to me he’s trying to make chicken salad out of chicken ****.

His JL Artist Series (or whatever they are called) horns were featured on and promoted by a well known Chinese maker, SunWin. The available evidence supports that those horns are of Chinese make. You’re not helping by proclaiming they are of Taiwanese manufacture when the available evidence suggests otherwise. Moreover, Leadbetter does himself a disservice proclaiming that he’s assembling a saxophone from selected parts sourced from a variety of vendors. Every saxophone vendor from Taiwan and China let’s the buyer pick and choose from preset key shapes and styles—it’s nothing special.

As for his Pino tenor saxophone, I previously told you I wouldn’t publicly share what they cost and their sourcing. I stand by that even though everyone seems to already know.

Leadbetter should be proud of his vendors and sourcing. He should advocate for them and promote them—not hide from them. Steve Goodson takes pride in sourcing from Sunwin. Sunwin reciprocates. Sunwin takes pride is JL saxophones. The missing party from this is John Leadbetter. He should be proud of his vendors.

Frankly, I wish the guy nothing but success. We need JL Woodwinds to be successful. Yes, it would help if John Leadbetter would stop hiding from his vendors and take pride in the origin of his saxophones.

Unyielding and misinformed? I literally was on the phone with John for 20 minutes before posting the above just to make sure I had the information 100% correct. Those screen shots you sent me from Ali Baba privately. What proof do you have that that is the exact same saxophone that you can buy from John's shop? It has similar key guards? Where do you get your information from that you're 100% sure is correct other than a few iPhone screen shots from a friend of yours? I'm talking to John himself, and you "know a guy who knows a guy."

Where is your source that JL Artist Signature saxophones are actual Sunwin horns? Do you have a press release? A quote from the company? It's time for you to reveal your "inside info." I bet it's going to be those same screen shots.

 

[PCorneliusJazz]

John sent me this redacted shipping manifest and asked me to share with this thread in order to clear up once and for all the country of origin of his Artist Signature line of saxophones.

anyone who still claims otherwise should disclose what their proof is, and whether their source has a personal or business disagreement with JL Woodwinds, in the spirit of transparency and honesty.

I have no desire to be in the middle of any disputes between vendors, particularly those I like and have done business with. I’m just a guy who thinks these tenor saxes are some of the best-playing horns around. I encourage anyone skeptical to visit the shop and at least give them a try.

I have no business or personal affiliation with JL Woodwinds beyond being a satisfied PAYING customer of their saxophones and repair services, although I do disclose that John and I have been friends since 2008, when we met at the Juilliard jazz auditions. Although I didn’t become an actual customer of his until last year (2022). Now everybody knows where I’m coming from.

 

[Jaice Singer DuMars]

The sad thing about this thread is we'll never hear ANGRYGUY talk about the credit being returned to him, or that people admit they have incorrect assumptions. No, this thread will sit here until the heat death of the universe impugning one of the most straight forward and honest people in our industry. Someone's passing impatience and mercurial anger gets carved in stone here, forever polluting someone's good name.

 

[PCorneliusJazz]

The sad thing about this thread is we'll never hear ANGRYGUY talk about the credit being returned to him, or that people admit they have incorrect assumptions. No, this thread will sit here until the heat death of the universe impugning one of the most straight forward and honest people in our industry. Someone's passing impatience and mercurial anger gets carved in stone here, forever polluting someone's good name.

On the internet, silence is often the best apology. 🙃

 

[Perio]

I too saw with my own eyes the Sunwin posts bragging about and proclaiming the greatness of the JL Woodwind saxophones. It’s amazing that they’ve since been taken down. I don’t believe for one minute they’re not of Chinese manufacture and origin. They should be stamped Made in China. There is actually nothing wrong with Made in China.

I also saw John’s post that he was spending 60 hours per saxophone and saw the images of him bathing his saxophones on Instagram, which is as someone else said, “silly season.”

As Ben mentioned, John is hurting his credibility with his 60 hour claims, the bathing of the saxophones, his claim of mixed nationality saxophones, and his apparent request to Sunwin to delete the Facebook posts. I don’t trust John Leadbetter. He’s hiding something.

 

[Dr G]

I too saw with my own eyes the Sunwin posts bragging about and proclaiming the greatness of the JL Woodwind saxophones. It’s amazing that they’ve since been taken down. I don’t believe for one minute they’re not of Chinese manufacture and origin. They should be stamped Made in China. There is actually nothing wrong with Made in China.

I also saw John’s post that he was spending 60 hours per saxophone and saw the images of him bathing his saxophones on Instagram, which is as someone else said, “silly season.”

As Ben mentioned, John is hurting his credibility with his 60 hour claims, the bathing of the saxophones, his claim of mixed nationality saxophones, and his apparent request to Sunwin to delete the Facebook posts. I don’t trust John Leadbetter. He’s hiding something.

Slander and defamation???

 

[PCorneliusJazz]

I too saw with my own eyes the Sunwin posts bragging about and proclaiming the greatness of the JL Woodwind saxophones. It’s amazing that they’ve since been taken down. I don’t believe for one minute they’re not of Chinese manufacture and origin. They should be stamped Made in China. There is actually nothing wrong with Made in China.

I also saw John’s post that he was spending 60 hours per saxophone and saw the images of him bathing his saxophones on Instagram, which is as someone else said, “silly season.”

As Ben mentioned, John is hurting his credibility with his 60 hour claims, the bathing of the saxophones, his claim of mixed nationality saxophones, and his apparent request to Sunwin to delete the Facebook posts. I don’t trust John Leadbetter. He’s hiding something.

Perhaps they were taken down because they aren't true. John used to order cases from them, but stopped 3 years ago when an entire batch of cases arrived defective. You can either continue to believe your own conspiracy theories, or take this up with John directly, if you have the courage. He has already supplied proof, which I relayed here. Where is yours?

Time to put up, or cease and desist with your slander campaign.

 

[raghav]

I too saw with my own eyes the Sunwin posts bragging about and proclaiming the greatness of the JL Woodwind saxophones. It’s amazing that they’ve since been taken down. I don’t believe for one minute they’re not of Chinese manufacture and origin. They should be stamped Made in China. There is actually nothing wrong with Made in China.

I also saw John’s post that he was spending 60 hours per saxophone and saw the images of him bathing his saxophones on Instagram, which is as someone else said, “silly season.”

As Ben mentioned, John is hurting his credibility with his 60 hour claims, the bathing of the saxophones, his claim of mixed nationality saxophones, and his apparent request to Sunwin to delete the Facebook posts. I don’t trust John Leadbetter. He’s hiding something.

How about a source for this 60 hour claim? John's never made that claim to my knowledge.

 

[Perio]

Slander? You’re obviously a saxophonist and not an attorney.

Let’s deal in facts that are not disputed. Numerous individuals saw and observed:
1) Sunwin posted Facebook images and positive statements regarding JL Woodwinds’Artist saxophones. Sunwin had one or two other posts referring to another maker—Steve Goodson. In years of Facebook posts, Sunwin only posted in reference to his items, John Leadbetter and Steve Goodson. Steve Goodson praised Sunwin.
2) John Leadbetter posted a claim that he spends 60 hours assembling the saxophones he received.
3) John Leadbetter posted on Instagram images of him bathing his saxophones with their metal screws and rods in tact.

Now let’s ask some questions.
1) What is John’s relationship with Sunwin. You stated it was a bad relationship based on a defective order from three years ago. Then why would Sunwin pick and choose John Leadbetter and his Artist saxophones years later to praise on his Facebook page? Why were the overwhelmingly positive comments and images withdrawn?
2) Why did John claim his assembly took 60 hours per saxophone? What is wrong with the saxophones that John needs so much time to assemble one horn?
3) No one disputes John is an expert repairman. Why would an expert repairman bathe a saxophone nonetheless with their steel rods and screws attached?

These are not conspiracy theories. They are facts and substantive questions that deserve answers.

 

[Perio]

How about a source for this 60 hour claim? John's never made that claim to my knowledge.

John posted it on his webpage. It was forwarded among numerous individuals months and months ago in a text message. I deleted it not thinking I would have to prove Leadbetter has made such claims.

 

[PCorneliusJazz]

Slander and defamation???

Slander? You’re obviously a saxophonist and not an attorney.

Let’s deal in facts that are not disputed. Numerous individuals saw and observed:
1) Sunwin posted Facebook images and positive statements regarding JL Woodwinds’Artist saxophones. Sunwin had one or two other posts referring to another maker—Steve Goodson. In years of Facebook posts, Sunwin only posted in reference to his items, John Leadbetter and Steve Goodson. Steve Goodson praised Sunwin.
2) John Leadbetter posted a claim that he spends 60 hours assembling the saxophones he received.
3) John Leadbetter posted on Instagram images of him bathing his saxophones with their metal screws and rods in tact.

Now let’s ask some questions.
1) What is John’s relationship with Sunwin. You stated it was a bad relationship based on a defective order from three years ago. Then why would Sunwin pick and choose John Leadbetter and his Artist saxophones years later to praise on his Facebook page? Why were the overwhelmingly positive comments and images withdrawn?
2) Why did John claim his assembly took 60 hours per saxophone? What is wrong with the saxophones that John needs so much time to assemble one horn?
3) No one disputes John is an expert repairman. Why would an expert repairman bathe a saxophone nonetheless with their steel rods and screws attached?

These are not conspiracy theories. They are facts and substantive questions that deserve answers.

That's true. I'm a saxophonist. A professional one. One who is experienced enough to know what is and isn't a quality horn. I don't care about marketing claims about bathing saxophones. I don't watch his YouTube clips. I do know that he just overhauled my alto and it took him way longer than I was expecting. So who knows how much time he spends doing what. I don't know and I don't care. What we have here are basic facts that have been proven, which you refuse to believe for some undisclosed reason. Maybe it's because you are friends with a person who does business with a rival of John's? I don't know. Maybe you are hiding something. Anyone can be, according to you!

I have seen the shipping manifests from pallets of saxophones, marked "country of origin: Taiwan. made in Taiwan" with my own eyes, and provided pdf copy of it here. I went to the shop yesterday and saw boxes of saxophones. The boxes were stamped "Made in Taiwan." These saxophones are made in Taiwan. The Artist Signature saxophone. That is a fact that is not disputable.

You saw a Facebook post from a person who works for a Chinese company that made a marketing claim. You somehow believe that that one person's quote over an actual copy of a shipping manifest. That defies any logic, unless there's something else behind your stubbornness refusal to accept facts. That web site post could have been written by anyone in the company who knew that they were doing business with John. One of his early revisions of his saxophones may even have been made by them at one time. John told me himself he used to buy parts from them. He does not anymore, and has not for years. You can continue to deflect about bathing saxophones, but you and everyone else here has seen proof that these instruments that he sells now labeled "JL Woodwinds Artist Signature" are made in Taiwan, not in China.

This has gotten beyond silly.

 

[buddy lee]

My company has vendors in China who use us as a customer reference, but we’ve never dealt with them. Just because someone says someone is a customer of theirs, that doesn’t make it true.

 

[Perio]

Okay, they are Made in Taiwan. I’ll accept your claims.

Just resolve why the horns are bathed and why he claimed 60 hours to assemble. Then I’ll be gone.

 

[PCorneliusJazz]

Okay, they are Made in Taiwan. I’ll accept your claims.

Just resolve why the horns are bathed and why he claimed 60 hours to assemble. Then I’ll be gone.

Why should I have to do that? I don't know and I don't care. Why do you?