+1 Stuartsax
Just because someone is selling a service doesn't make this true. Its amazing what people want to believe.
JL Woodwinds saxophones
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Just because someone is selling a service doesn't make this true. Its amazing what people want to believe.
There was a question earlier about the weight of the JL Woodwinds tenor. John weighed one of his JL Woodwind tenors alongside an SBA he had at the shop. Both weighed in at 6.8lbs on the scale he used for the measurement.
I played the JL Woodwind tenors today - several different finishes. A rose brass version, a honey vintage lacquer finish horn, and a bare polished brass horn. Also played alongside a 140,XXX freshly overhauled Mark VI tenor saxophone. The horn feels just like a VI in terms of the keywork, though the body is patterned after the SBA.
John has nailed it. All three of his tenors outplayed the Mark VI (which was a very good horn, in my opinion). Side-by-side, the sound from John's tenor was as focused as the VI, but with a tad more sparkle in harmonics than the VI. Intonation is locked in and the horn plays very evenly from bottom-to-top. Compared to my SBA, these horns are easily the sonic equal, weigh as little, have better intonation, are more free-blowing, and have slightly better ergonomics (for me) (Mark VI vs. SBA). John specifically has worked on his necks to make his tenors more free-blowing than the typical SBA, but that is a choice that can be easily dialed in to fit the players preference.
I'd encourage anyone looking for a tenor that plays as well as the best vintage Mark VI or SBAs to try out one of John's horns. Don't take my word for it, go try them out.
John has nailed it. All three of his tenors outplayed the Mark VI (which was a very good horn, in my opinion). Side-by-side, the sound from John's tenor was as focused as the VI, but with a tad more sparkle in harmonics than the VI. Intonation is locked in and the horn plays very evenly from bottom-to-top. Compared to my SBA, these horns are easily the sonic equal, weigh as little, have better intonation, are more free-blowing, and have slightly better ergonomics (for me) (Mark VI vs. SBA). John specifically has worked on his necks to make his tenors more free-blowing than the typical SBA, but that is a choice that can be easily dialed in to fit the players preference.
I'd encourage anyone looking for a tenor that plays as well as the best vintage Mark VI or SBAs to try out one of John's horns. Don't take my word for it, go try them out.
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Let me help out a bit. It's no longer true that all Taiwanese saxophones are built on the same design although I know of a couple that are because those companies are focusing more on marketing and they're happy with their designs and they're very good horns. I worked long and hard with engineers from Taiwan to manufacture a neck and develop a tube before we went into production, it wasn't just pick and choose and I made my own necks for years and mouthpieces from scratch since 1982 and I'm not an engineer, I was just very dedicated and tenacious. All you have to do is have a great design, know a draftsman here then send it overseas, it takes a a long time and you have to be very patient. I worked on this for a couple of years before we went into production and I was very picky so you're ill advised to think that all Taiwanese horns are similar, they're not. However, there's a lot of novices on here giving their opinions when they just might not be able to tell the difference between various manufacturers. Think before you type, ignorance sucks.
Phil Barone
Phil Barone
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Unfortunately, my experience with John was not good. I ordered one of his Artist Edition tenors. There was an issue with it, later confirmed by John. I returned the horn for exchange. Roughly two months later, no horn. My emails were not returned. I was able to talk to John a few times on the phone and he kept promising to send a replacement. He said he had some in stock (website said 3). Two months later, no horn. Finally, I just asked for a refund. I got tired of the run-around and waiting. I bought an Ishimori from another seller.
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Thank you for sharing this. You got lucky! My issue with John is his selling of cheap Chinese made saxophones such as his Pino saxophone. The saxophones can be purchased on Alibaba for a few hundred dollars, but John marks them up 10x that and sells them for over 4,000.
Congrats on your Ishimori!
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Why do you think Ishimori is any different in that regard? The value either seller adds is their setting up. Whether that's worth 10x that's up to the buying customer to judge.
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Very interesting! That might explain why the first horn I received had some significant issues, regardless of the "setup".
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I'm feeling more and more like I dodged a bullet. The information I'm getting is started to confirm the suspicion I felt bad about...that John, the owner of Jl Woodwinds, may be a bit of a hustler. I hope not, though.
Armstrong Heritage alto, Martin Comm III Tenor, Yamaha YTS-21, Altus flute
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He’s not a hustler. He’s a nice person and a good repairman. It bothers me when people trash business owners on forums. It strikes me as petty and unethical. A thread that was meant to call attention to an interesting product has now become a referendum on a guy’s entire operation, largely by people who are on the other side of the Atlantic. I’m sure JL has disappointed some customers over the years, as have most humans but I think the classy thing to do is deal with such things tactfully and discretely.
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It seems like you’re having an emotional overreaction to a bit of poor customer service. It happens. We’ve all been there, especially when dealing with small businesses whose demand outstrips their capabilities.
I speak with John a few times a week. he’s ALWAYS at the shop. He clearly could benefit from more help, but I can only imagine it’s hard to trust others with the tasks that need doing the most. I don’t know what you mean by “hustler,” but I doubt a sizable segment of New York’s best saxophonists could be bamboozled by a repair charlatan. Either their horns play, or they don’t. I mean honestly, after 30 years of playing professionally, I definitely know when a horn plays well.
when talking about modern saxophones, an instrument’s intrinsic value is in how well it plays, and how well it holds up to regular use over the years. These horns play, and play damn well, whether the separate components were originally manufactured in Asia or Europe. No one knows yet how durable they’ll be. Obviously only time will tell. But they don’t feel flimsy or shoddy to me
And when you think about similarly-priced horns like Ishimori, Cannonball, Rampone, Yammy 62, Eastman, etc, I think how well the JL horns play makes them a competitive value. For example, I can barely abide to hold a Cannonball saxophone, let alone play a gig on one. (I do love the Yamaha 62 altos, tho! Especially the ones from the 80s and early 90s).
I’m sorry your horn didn’t work out. It’s fair to be disappointed with the product and the customer service. But if you’re accusing a reputable business owner of running scams (in the world of instrument repair, a notorious difficult line of work to turn a profit in) you’ll need more proof than that.
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I think you need to read the comments more carefully.
I think you need to read the comments more carefully.
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Perhaps the comments should have been worded more carefully, if multiple people are getting an impression that you didn’t intend.
what DID you mean, then?
I noticed John isn’t the only retailer that you bought a horn from, returned, and then come here to complain about. Maybe actually playing the horns before buying them would save you the time and aggravation.
Armstrong Heritage alto, Martin Comm III Tenor, Yamaha YTS-21, Altus flute
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My comment wasn't meant to call you out, specifically. It was a general observation about the airing of such grievances in a forum where people do not have enough background information to evaluate what is said and may overgeneralize from a single example. Not that JL's business is any of danger, given that he has a large, loyal customer base in New York City. I don't doubt that you had a frustrating experience. But suggesting that he is a "hustler" is going a little too far, in my opinion. He's basically running a one man operation. Any lapse in customer service would most likely be a matter of time management and organization, not bad intentions. Part of my comment was regarding posts from people with no firsthand knowledge of the JL horns speculating about what they are and are not. Phil Barone's post addressed this better than I could, though.
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In case you missed it, here's my original comment. I don't think it could be made much clearer.
"Unfortunately, my experience with John was not good. I ordered one of his Artist Edition tenors. There was an issue with it, later confirmed by John. I returned the horn for exchange. Roughly two months later, no horn. My emails were not returned. I was able to talk to John a few times on the phone and he kept promising to send a replacement. He said he had some in stock (website said 3). Two months later, no horn. Finally, I just asked for a refund. I got tired of the run-around and waiting. I bought an Ishimori from another seller." My other comment came after comments and a link challenging the integrity of the horns sold by John, to which I commented ...."may be a bit of a hustler. But, I hope not." The words "may" and "bit" do not indicate an absolute statement nor does the second sentence.
Now, I have no idea who you are, and you don't know me. Don't make assumptions about me, please. While you have the right to offer positive feedback, I have the right to offer negative. I'm done responding to your and another's criticisms (makes you look like a hypocrite). If you think that's acceptable customer care, totally cool. I do not.
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Please see my response to PCorneliusJazz.
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The gentleman above you is absolutely correct. You absolutely did “suggest” that John is a hustler, simply because he couldn’t fill an order to your satisfaction and then refunded your money. A hustler would have cheated you.
You want to parse the difference between “say” and “suggest” and stake your public integrity on that? That tells me more about you than anything else, and nothing good.
as to whether or not I think your experience is “acceptable customer care,” I think you need to read my comments more carefully.
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Ishimori buys their saxophones from Taiwan. The cost per saxophone is about five times higher than junky Chinese saxophones, which is where John buys his saxophones.
Ignoring the geopolitical and ethical issues associated with buying junk from China, the quality difference is huge. What John is doing is unethical and deceptive on his part, too.
I like John’s videos; he doesn’t seem like a bad guy. But his business practice of selling junk made to play is egregious.
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