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· Discombobulated SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 201
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From Ira Gitler's liner notes to Jackie's Jacknife, originally from 1975, reprinted with the 2002 CD reissue: "McLean once described 'freedom in jazz' as 'new grazing grounds for all the cattle that want to go out and eat some new grass. All those who want to keep picking over the same grass, let them stay there. But those who want to move out into new grazing grounds, it's here. If they want to, if they feel like it.'"
 

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Without that freedom, jazz goes nowhere. It becomes formalized into strict and rigid 'schools', like classical music, and you won't be able to tell one player from another by listening. Wait, that already happened!
 

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Free jazz is a different beastie really. Mostly when somebody says play free, especially in a workshop, people take it as meaning play out of tune, which, of course it isn’t, although it could be.
 

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And yet, so many people I see on the forums eschew free jazz.
It depends what you consider "free jazz"? I can listen to some of Ornette Coleman's stuff but not Archie Shepp. For me, music has to have some kind of melody or it just becomes an irritating noise. It's just personal taste really. But I do agree with Jackie, you should be allowed to graze or stay in the same pasture ...
 

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And yet, so many people I see on the forums eschew free jazz.
It depends what you consider "free jazz"? I can listen to some of Ornette Coleman's stuff but not Archie Shepp. For me, music has to have some kind of melody or it just becomes an irritating noise. It's just personal taste really. But I do agree with Jackie, you should be allowed to graze or stay in the same pasture ...
Quite, Jackie and Ornette had the flow, a stream.
 

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Free Jazz is the most extreme genre, my favorite albums and my least favorite and in that category or adjacent. Conference of the Birds, Out to Lunch, Interstellar Space - great albums. I can listen to some of Albert Ayler but "Spiritual Unity" is just too much. "Ascension" may be Coltrane but it's not my thing.

I think Jackie McLean found a good space, I actually like his more free albums over some of his hard bop stuff.

Not being formalized does bring on the question of what freedom means, though. I do understand the desire to break free of endless ii-V patterns. There is a book I have about early free jazz that analyzes it, but it's a bit dense and I haven't been feeling like doing my homework. In any case, anything that gives you permission to NOT play Charlie Parker licks over standard progressions has a certain appeal at times. I like bop, but sometimes I want a different flavor.
 

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When we were young kids, we thought the music we liked was the greatest music in the world. Now, most of us can't stand to listen to it anymore. Why? The music didn't change. It is exactly what it was.

What changed was us. Our ears and minds became something different and , lo and behold, that music of our childhoods didn't sound so good to us.

When we declare what we like and don't like now, we are pretty much back in that same position, and for all we know, our ears and our minds have just not caught up to the music of the moment.

I think "liking" and "disliking" are overrated terms. Perhaps "hearing it" or "not hearing it" would be better.
 

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Jackie is not talking about "free jazz" he is talking about freedom in jazz. Me thinks they are two different discussions.
They may well be. By 1975 there had been quite a few innovations, so by then I would have thought freedom could mean the freedom to not be restricted to the harmonic and rhythmic conventions of bebop and earlier. So I imagine while it can mean totally free, it could also mean free-er, or freeform with some structural elements, or modal, or fusion. I would take it to mean just going beyond the mainstream.
 

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When we were young kids, we thought the music we liked was the greatest music in the world. Now, most of us can't stand to listen to it anymore. Why? The music didn't change. It is exactly what it was.

What changed was us. Our ears and minds became something different and , lo and behold, that music of our childhoods didn't sound so good to us.

When we declare what we like and don't like now, we are pretty much back in that same position, and for all we know, our ears and our minds have just not caught up to the music of the moment.

I think "liking" and "disliking" are overrated terms. Perhaps "hearing it" or "not hearing it" would be better.
Well, we will have to agree to disagree then. I still listen to the music I listened to as a kid, as well as music from that time that I didn't know about then. Other than jazz I don't listen to any of today's contemporary music.
 

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They may well be. By 1975 there had been quite a few innovations, so by then I would have thought freedom could mean the freedom to not be restricted to the harmonic and rhythmic conventions of bebop and earlier. So I imagine while it can mean totally free, it could also mean free-er, or freeform with some structural elements, or modal, or fusion. I would take it to mean just going beyond the mainstream.
In other words, Bitches Brew.
 

· Discombobulated SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 201
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Gitler wrote in the liner notes for that 1975 Jacknife release that "McLean once described...", so we don't know when Jackie actually said this. My guess is that it was during the 1960s, when the debate over the validity of "new developments" in jazz was probably much more intense than in the 1970s. And given that McLean's experience pushing jazz boundaries extended all the way back to his work with Mingus in the 1950s, I don't think he would have been talking about the freedom to develop a distinctive individual style. He was talking about breaking down bop conventions in one way or another, as exemplified by many of his albums recorded in the 1960s (including the two previously unreleased sessions on the Jacknife LP, the latter of which was unfortunately dropped on the CD reissue).
 

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In other words, Bitches Brew.
Bitches Brew was shifting towards rock. It was certainly freeform but hanging onto the current dynamism that was happening on the rock world. I think that the idea of building in space to play free has been incorporated into modern jazz playing even though much writing has become over intellectualised, complex for the sake of it. It isn't Free Jazz but I think finds a way that allows free expression without losing structure.
 

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Bitches Brew was shifting towards rock. It was certainly freeform but hanging onto the current dynamism that was happening on the rock world. I think that the idea of building in space to play free has been incorporated into modern jazz playing even though much writing has become over intellectualised, complex for the sake of it. It isn't Free Jazz but I think finds a way that allows free expression without losing structure.
There were those aspects that appealed to Miles, of course. James Brown, Sly and the Family Stone, Jimi Hendrix, etc. It was about energy, and visceral excitement and most importantly to him, sound and new ways to find rhythms and freedom from what he pioneered and perfected as a purely acoustic player. Hendrix's studio craft in particular was what he hoped to achieve in his new experimentation of electric manipulation of sound. It turned out well enough in spite of all the new pitfalls and his return to drug abuse.
 

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From Ira Gitler's liner notes to Jackie's Jacknife, originally from 1975, reprinted with the 2002 CD reissue: "McLean once described 'freedom in jazz' as 'new grazing grounds for all the cattle that want to go out and eat some new grass. All those who want to keep picking over the same grass, let them stay there. But those who want to move out into new grazing grounds, it's here. If they want to, if they feel like it.'"
I always thought that eating metaphors were interesting, much in the way that this one is, too. Clearly he's referring to human nature and the freedom of choice and reflecting that back at society in earnest honesty and critical commentary. Jackie was equally at home at expressing his thoughts in words obviously and somewhere a while back I remember reading a very caustic observation of his about the development of the atomic bomb and how it related to mainstream American attitudes of that era. Post WWII jazz has reflected the creative genius of its creators and practitioners against the tumultuous nature of modern progress and al its pitfalls, and paradoxes. Strictly on musical terms, post Mingus specifically as far as McLean is concerned, his championing of Ornette Coleman and Eric Dolphy is well known and a reflection of who he was as well. I never read this set of liner notes but I hope that this was covered in them as well.
 

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Here's what Steve Lacy had to say...

The way Louis Armstrong played was "more free" than earlier
players. Roy Eldridge was "more free" than his predecessors. Dizzy
Gillespie was another stage and [Don] Cherry was another. And
you have to keep it going otherwise you lose that freedom. And
then the music is finished. It's a matter of life and death. The only
criterion is: "Is this stuff alive or is it dead?"
-Steve Lacy (as cited in Bailey, 1993, p. 56)

Freedom is a matter of life and death? I agree. Otherwise, why play?
 

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For me, music has to have some kind of melody or it just becomes an irritating noise. It's just personal taste really. ...
It's not about a melody; it's about melodic intonation and the structures it contains. The theory of intonation (have you heard of it?) states about subconscious intonation resonance in listeners who have some kind of preparatory experience. Such a resonance generates solidarity. However, such solidarity can also arise on the basis of theoretical knowledge, acquaintance with the history of the development of musical aesthetics. Who said that jazz, especially free jazz, is music for passive easy listening? It requires the active participation of a listener who has the necessary skills for this. It is not by chance that free jazz attracts artists of the visual arts first of all - what did they manage to hear in this music that others did not hear?
 
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