[JeffT]

Hi,

(All that follows is regarding tenor)

The only fingering my teacher gave me for altissimo G is:
X000 000 + side Bb
Using that fingering I don't even start to hear the note i.e. it is not even on the verge of sounding. I had the high F# almost sounding for months before I finally managed to play it!

The high F# fingering (without using the high F# key that is) that works best for me is: X000 X000

Today while messing around I finally conjure an altissimo G (first time so I'll drop a mark on the calendar ) using this fingering: X00 000 + high F# key (no front F). With that fingering I was able to play it reliably albeit not musically.

Hence the question: is that cheating?

If I was to keep using the fingering that worked for me today what would be a good guess for the G# and A fingerings? There seems to be altissimo fingerings schemes or families that work well for some player-horn-mouthpiece combination.

So if for me:
F# X000 X00
G 0X00 000 + High F#
which would be the G# & A fingerings of that family?

Thank you!

 

[maddenma]

Nope. With altissimo, whatever you get to work for you is the correct fingering. There are some that are easier to move around on, but if you can't play them that way it really doesn't matter, does it?

 

[jicaino]

Unless you don't have one in wich case yes, it's cheating.

 

[lhoffman]

Not cheating, but a crutch that can become a bad habit. Your fingering is good for a reliable, one-off G, but using the F# key for G puts your right hand out of place for standard fingerings for nearby notes, F#: F + OXO|OXX + side C, G#: XOX|XOO + side C, A: OXX|OOO + side C. Can you play front F and E? I.e. F + OXO|OOO, F + OXX|OOO. If you can't, that's first, before anything else. Then it is useful to get practice playing "altissimo" F using XXO|XXO, by slurring between front F and this pseudo-altissimo F (they're the same pitch). If you can do that reliably, the standard G fingerings are not too far away. For what it's worth, for G I use F + OOO|OOO + Bb.

 

[JeffT]

Thank you for the advices!

Yes I can play both F & E using front F and use them frequently.

I'll try the fingerings and the high F slurring exercise you proposed.

Thank you very much!

 

[BrianMitchellBrody]

In the real world of performing whatever gets you where you need to be is good enough. I learned F#3 and up without an F# key but I do use my F#3 key sometimes because it speaks better.

B

 

[ratracer]

The only fingering my teacher gave me for altissimo G is:
X000 000 + side Bb

Using that fingering I don't even start to hear the note i.e. it is not even on the verge of sounding. I had the high F# almost sounding for months before I finally managed to play it!

You may want to try using the front F as "just" a vent in order to get that G to speak. Close the A with your middle finger, then using the first finger, vent the front f just a millimeter or two until the G speaks. Finger these keys - X|XOO|OOO (Try without the side Bb first but just crack the front F) That's what I had to do. Otherwise, the G just would not speak for me even though I could get just about everything, F#, G3 and above, to speak.

Now I'm working on keeping the G alive while I use just the front F. Still very hard for me to do but I have also adapted to using the first finger to close the A and roll it just slightly on the front F to allow the G to speak for the moment.

 

[JeffT]

Not cheating, but a crutch that can become a bad habit. Your fingering is good for a reliable, one-off G, but using the F# key for G puts your right hand out of place for standard fingerings for nearby notes, F#: F + OXO|OXX + side C, G#: XOX|XOO + side C, A: OXX|OOO + side C. Can you play front F and E? I.e. F + OXO|OOO, F + OXX|OOO. If you can't, that's first, before anything else.

Thank you for these fingering. I tried the F# fingering you suggested and was unable to sound it. Whereas my regular F + 000|X00 sounded nice & easy. Should I fight to have the fingering you posted sound, i.e. are there derived benefits of beeing able to sound it? Or should I simply go with my current one?

Then it is useful to get practice playing "altissimo" F using XXO|XXO, by slurring between front F and this pseudo-altissimo F (they're the same pitch). If you can do that reliably, the standard G fingerings are not too far away. For what it's worth, for G I use F + OOO|OOO + Bb.

I was able to practice that slurring a bit before my embouchure (tongue etc) abandon me. I guess I need to build up some endurance I felt that slurring exercise draw me closer to sounding that G and as a matter of fact a few minute later, using ratracer method I was able to play it a few times :cheers:

You may want to try using the front F as "just" a vent in order to get that G to speak. Close the A with your middle finger, then using the first finger, vent the front f just a millimeter or two until the G speaks. Finger these keys - X|XOO|OOO (Try without the side Bb first but just crack the front F) That's what I had to do. Otherwise, the G just would not speak for me even though I could get just about everything, F#, G3 and above, to speak.

Now I'm working on keeping the G alive while I use just the front F. Still very hard for me to do but I have also adapted to using the first finger to close the A and roll it just slightly on the front F to allow the G to speak for the moment.

I managed to sound a G using your trick to slightly vent the front F. Is this always that way that you sound it? I tried to play front F and front E with the front F vent slightly opened and they were both out of tune, muffled and harder to sound so I guess adjusting the front F so just a air crack opens is out of the question...

Again thanks to all, it feels really great to finally manage some progress toward altissimo!

 

[maddenma]

Unless you don't have one in wich case yes, it's cheating.

Yup. It's cheating to punch a hole in your horn....

 

[jicaino]

Yup. It's cheating to punch a hole in your horn....

so what do you make of permanently closing one? :twisted:

 

[maddenma]

Closing an Eb trill key is doing mankind a service -- although I tend to prefer a less radical approach.

 

[ratracer]

Thank you for these fingering. I tried the F# fingering you suggested and was unable to sound it. Whereas my regular F + 000|X00 sounded nice & easy. Should I fight to have the fingering you posted sound, i.e. are there derived benefits of beeing able to sound it? Or should I simply go with my current one?

I was able to practice that slurring a bit before my embouchure (tongue etc) abandon me. I guess I need to build up some endurance I felt that slurring exercise draw me closer to sounding that G and as a matter of fact a few minute later, using ratracer method I was able to play it a few times :cheers:

I managed to sound a G using your trick to slightly vent the front F. Is this always that way that you sound it? I tried to play front F and front E with the front F vent slightly opened and they were both out of tune, muffled and harder to sound so I guess adjusting the front F so just a air crack opens is out of the question...

Again thanks to all, it feels really great to finally manage some progress toward altissimo!

For the time being, yes, I use the front F as a vent to get the G to speak. That being said, I don't play in the altissimo range so it's okay, for now. I'm still working on voicing it with the front F all open though. However, using the method I described (which I read here btw!) I can at least get the sound of the note in my head so I recognize it when it does speak. And yes, the more open the front F is, the better sounding the front E and F , so at some point there is that trade off to consider.

I will admit to the palm E and F being a tad sharp as well. Allow them to close a tad and they come into tune.

Ah, the sax, such a study in compromise! Good luck!

 

[fredbart]

Cheating ? No. The reason for the "standard" fingerings is that they work on all saxes to some degree ..thus I can use them on my 10M which was manufactured before the invention of the high F# key. Here is another way to look at this question....there was a time before the invention of the articulated G# key. To move quickly between say low C# and G# required the familiar movement of the right hand fingers PLUS a coordinated left pinky slide between the G# and low C# keys. Is it cheating to take advantage of the simpler articulated G# fingering? I don't know anybody who would call that cheating (though I have been around here long enough to KNOW that some SOTW poster in planning on doing just that ....haha).

 

[jicaino]

Cheating ? No. The reason for the "standard" fingerings is that they work on all saxes to some degree ..thus I can use them on my 10M which was manufactured before the invention of the high F# key. Here is another way to look at this question....there was a time before the invention of the articulated G# key. To move quickly between say low C# and G# required the familiar movement of the right hand fingers PLUS a coordinated left pinky slide between the G# and low C# keys. Is it cheating to take advantage of the simpler articulated G# fingering? I don't know anybody who would call that cheating (though I have been around here long enough to KNOW that some SOTW poster in planning on doing just that ....haha).

That must be one old 10 M since Adolphe Sax manufactured horns keyed to high G and low G... (so, the invention of the high F# key is from way before turn of the 19th century)

 

[ratracer]

@JeffT - as an update to my front F vent suggestion - as I indicated, I am still working on the G3 with front F full open - well, I'm pleased to announce that it just popped out in my last practice routine with front F fully open!

Using other suggestions, ie playing the F#3 (X|0XO|XOO with side Bb) and slowly releasing the unneeded keys, the G3 finally spoke, and was in tune to boot! I've been working on this for literally a couple of years and it finally came out.

Granted, I don't/can't spend multiple hours on multiple days of the week practicing so it's no wonder it took this long, but on a whim, I took out my STM NY 7 (that I really haven't played in a couple of months, I usually use a 6* STM) slapped on a Rico Royale 2.5 (that I've learned to adjust a bit through SoTW btw), using the stock lig (which I'm not crazy about), warmed it up with some scales & running through some long tones, then played with the overtones, and finally, tried that G3. Voila & El Ka-bong!!

Since I've used the vent method, I knew exactly what to listen for but I had my tuner on as well and it verified that I did indeed hit G3! So, now it's time to get consistent with it. I've got a couple of pieces in which the G3 is written but I've played it down an octave just to get the tune down. It is about time!

Good luck, hang in there in & persevere. Hopefully it won't take you as long as me!

 

[fredbart]

That must be one old 10 M since Adolphe Sax manufactured horns keyed to high G and low G... (so, the invention of the high F# key is from way before turn of the 19th century)

Haha ... Thanks Juan, I always learn something when I come here and you are right. Adolphe did indeed extend the range that high in 1881. Any idea why this didn't become standard at that time? (perhaps because it required 4 octave keys?)

 

[jtyler]

It isn't cheating; that's actually the same fingering I'm accustomed to. It's easier to blow than the other fingering. However, if you practice and perfect your overtones and your airflow, that other fingering will sound. That's what happened to me. A while ago, I just happened to try the fingering, and it sounded perfect. However, I still like the other fingering better, partly because it seems more solid to me. You should try the fingering every once-in-a-while just to see what happens.

 

[zorroperro]

I use that Key in a lot of my Fingerings.

I use it in many fingerings.

Having things straight, first C on the horn is C1.

Ok, on F#3, first altissimo note for many, I use the standard fingering that includes the F# key, the forked one with three variations which two of them include that key. Depends on the passage.

Not on G3, not on Ab3, not on A3, not on Bb4, not on B4, or C4, or C#4 or D4 but yes on D#4 in both variations. Then I do not use it again until G4, Ab4, and A4 where that key is a must for me and that is my regular range.

All this is on Alto. If on a very special day, the reed feels like it, Bb5, B5 and C5 come with that key, too.

Now, tenors usually jump to that altissimo though being a larger horn.

My advice, if wanted, is to follow your teachers lessons, but keep in mind you can experiment at the altissimo range.

Find those fingering charts around and you will see many of them include many keys, as the F# key and many others. You can change some fingerins as they fit better for you.

All the best,

JI

 

[Phil1]

No.

 

[jicaino]

No.

yeah. NO!