[Hornlip]

I've got a lacquered brass New Aristocrat alto that I've assumed used to be silver plated because of the scarcity of brass finish horns from that era. A thread over in the Conn forum has got me wondering if it wasn't a brass finish horn from the start.

The horn's mostly de-snapped and uuuuggly. Lacquer's mostly gone, and doesn't look like anything Buescher used back then. Some loose key guard feet and lousy soldering. Got every single Norton spring, though; the action actually feels very snappy and fairly tight, considering. It'll even play up and down the stacks if you concentrate and ignore the whacked regulation. Also, it smells bad.

But, the engraving's pretty sharp as is the serial number & True Tone logo, though they looks a little "flat", but not with the kind of worn down, filled in blurriness a buffing causes.

I can't find a sign of silver plate anywhere on the body, posts, key work, inside the neck and body, etc. No hint of a formerly "satin" finish. The only things that look silvery I'm pretty sure is solder showing at the base of some of the posts; there's also some powdery whitish stuff here and there that looks like somebody tried to polish with baking soda or something.

Take a look:

 

[paulwl]

I'd say it's original lacquered brass. Buescher did move a certain number of bare brass saxes. They began lacquering brass horns in the early 1930s, around the time of the New Crat.

The shiny gold-to-dull reddish patina reminds me of my New Crat tenor, which was in a similar state of de-lacquering when I bought it. It's since been hand stripped. My tenor's engraving appears very similar to yours - sharp, but shallow cut.

 

[JL]

I've got a lacquered brass New Aristocrat alto that I've assumed used to be silver plated because of the scarcity of brass finish horns from that era.

I never realized that brass finish was scarce back then. I think it's true that silver-plated horns were fairly common because people were willing to pay what was probably a small premium for the silver plate. But I'm sure there were plenty of brass finish horns also.

I can't really imagine why anyone would 'deplate' a silver horn, but maybe it has happened. In any case, I bet that's a great horn. It would be worth having it cleaned up and overhauled, imo. Assuming you want to play it and not sell it on.

 

[1saxman]

I think you're right - looks like it never was plated, and apparently has never been buffed. I would acid-dip it to remove all lacquer and oxidation and either hand-polish or leave it as-is. After hand-polishing with brass polish, it'll look like a new sax before lacquering, but over time the shine gives way to a nice gold/brown patina that you can maintain with Pledge. I hope those are drawn tone holes, not soldered, because I see that they used several tone holes to solder guard feet to - no way to re-solder those without melting the solder of the tone hole, unless the tone holes are silver-soldered like the early Super 20. It would have to have a great sound for me to go to all that trouble, though. I once got a great buy on an early 'The Martin Alto' that was too messed-up to play at all, so I got an overhaul done on it. I have 'The Martin' tenor and bari, so I thought the alto would be a natural. Unfortunately, it just didn't blow, so I sold it. Basically got my money back and considered myself lucky. Obviously, some of them play great (Earl Bostic!) so I still might try another one some day.

 

[VintageSaxGuy]

I can't really imagine why anyone would 'deplate' a silver horn, but maybe it has happened. In any case, I bet that's a great horn. It would be worth having it cleaned up and overhauled, imo. Assuming you want to play it and not sell it on.

Back in the day, this was done to more than just a couple horns. The thought being that as time progressed, silver wasn't as popular/common of a finish...so to blend with the other 'new' instruments on the bandstand you would have yours refinished appropriately.

But the examples I've seen that show this are more commonly brasswind instruments.

 

[Hornlip]

I'd say it's original lacquered brass. Buescher did move a certain number of bare brass saxes. They began lacquering brass horns in the early 1930s, around the time of the New Crat.

The shiny gold-to-dull reddish patina reminds me of my New Crat tenor, which was in a similar state of de-lacquering when I bought it. It's since been hand stripped. My tenor's engraving appears very similar to yours - sharp, but shallow cut.

Well, there are way more lacquered brass early Aristocrats than silver plated examples, makes sense that you might see more brass NA horns, especially one from late in the run like this one.

I like the looks of your NA - did you do the stripping yourself?

I never realized that brass finish was scarce back then. I think it's true that silver-plated horns were fairly common because people were willing to pay what was probably a small premium for the silver plate. But I'm sure there were plenty of brass finish horns also.

I can't really imagine why anyone would 'deplate' a silver horn, but maybe it has happened. In any case, I bet that's a great horn. It would be worth having it cleaned up and overhauled, imo. Assuming you want to play it and not sell it on.

Silver plate was pretty much standard before the depression; same goes for the brass winds. I think you had to special order a brass finish horn from Buescher, and they didn't lacquer them. You had to have it done after-market.

This one's a keeper. To the extent it plays, it's promising. And it's almost entirely de-snapped, so resale value is diminished; plus it's the only de-snapped Buescher I've got so I can set it up non-standard with a clean conscience. Plus, I like the True Tone horns - the NA is like a True Tone but with the Norton Springs installed it feels very different.

 

[paulwl]

I like the looks of your NA - did you do the stripping yourself?

It was done by Matt Stohrer as part of a restoration. Interesting to note, he asked me if I'd rather have cork or synthetics. I chose cork, and the action is unusually noisy as a result, altho it is an amazingly easy- and free-blowing tenor.

And it's almost entirely de-snapped, so resale value is diminished; plus it's the only de-snapped Buescher I've got so I can set it up non-standard with a clean conscience.

My tenor had no snaps either. (We're talking basket case here!) Matt came as close as he could with smallish, domed resonators on shellaced pads.

 

[maddenma]

One pretty sure way to tell is in the wee bit of lacquer that remains near the bell, check to see if the engraving is cut through the lacquer. If it is, then it was either an original finish, or someone retraced the engraving after it was lacquered -- which is a pretty rare event. If there are traces of lacquer in the engraving itself, then lacquer was applied sometime after the horn left the factory -- albeit which also could have been done at the factory itself sometime later.

 

[bruce bailey]

I say original finish.

 

[saintsday]

Silver plate was pretty much standard before the depression; same goes for the brass winds. I think you had to special order a brass finish horn from Buescher, and they didn't lacquer them. You had to have it done after-market.

That doesn't really jive with my experience with True Tones. Although a lot of silver plated instruments are still around, I think that bare brass was standard with silver and gold plating an optional extra. It only makes sense that silver and gold plated examples would be more likely to survive for the better part of a century.

FWIW, I currently have two NA altos which were originally either bare brass or lacquer and an NA tenor that is pretty clearly original lacquer.

 

[Grumps]

Back in the day, this was done to more than just a couple horns. The thought being that as time progressed, silver wasn't as popular/common of a finish...so to blend with the other 'new' instruments on the bandstand you would have yours refinished appropriately.

My TT soprano had its original silver plate buffed off at some point and been lacquered probably at least two times after that. It's back to silver now though, and has always been a good player.

Just curious in regard to the New Aristocrat. What's the number/markings on the neck?

 

[sandster]

Hi Everyone! I have done a little research on the Buescher brass CMel I just got. If you Google "Buescher sax finishes", you can see an old ad explaining the finishes available. They are: Brass, 2 silver and two gold. I'm assuming that brass was the least expensive. Funny, now maybe they are a little more sought after?

 

[paulwl]

Not necessarily, unless it's known to be a rare finish. Conn sopranos, for instance, almost never turn up in brass.

 

[saintsday]

If you Google "Buescher sax finishes", you can see an old ad explaining the finishes available. They are: Brass, 2 silver and two gold. I'm assuming that brass was the least expensive. Funny, now maybe they are a little more sought after?

Definitely not.

Gold is the most valuable followed by silver, just as one would expect. True Tone bare brass or first lacquer altos sell on ebay, on average, about 25% less than silver. The scarcity of original bare brass is due to the wide spread passion for lacquer when it was first developed in the 30s. It slowed the corrosion that naturally occurs with bare brass and made the musician's instrument look spiffier on the bandstand. Up until the last 20 or 30 years many manufacturers, including Buescher, offered factory re-lacquer. Lacquer is a temporary finish for those who don't care for or can't afford silver or gold. The modern bare brass instruments, IMHO, are for lunatics.

 

[bruce bailey]

Well said. I hate the new bare finishes too. I think that the new bare brass is for High School kids who want to look like a down and out jazz player from the 50s.

 

[paulwl]

It's a good way to give an icky relacquer some class. I wouldn't have had my horns delac'd if they hadn't been icky messes of scratched lacquer and red bruises.

 

[JL]

Aside from cosmetics, my take on finishes is that they are there partly to protect the brass. Lacquer will do that until it wears off. So will silver, which lasts much longer than lacquer (I don't know about the modern lacquers, they may last longer than in the past). Gold, of course, is primarily for looks, but the double plating of silver and gold certainly provides good protection to the brass.

A brand new horn of bare brass, with no lacquer to protect the brass, makes no sense to me at all.

 

[saintsday]

It's a good way to give an icky relacquer some class. I wouldn't have had my horns delac'd if they hadn't been icky messes of scratched lacquer and red bruises.

I can buy that. Do you use anything on them to keep them from tarnishing? Do silver anti-tarnish strips in the case do any good for brass?

 

[Hornlip]

That doesn't really jive with my experience with True Tones. Although a lot of silver plated instruments are still around, I think that bare brass was standard with silver and gold plating an optional extra. It only makes sense that silver and gold plated examples would be more likely to survive for the better part of a century.

FWIW, I currently have two NA altos which were originally either bare brass or lacquer and an NA tenor that is pretty clearly original lacquer.

Well it's all reconstructed history, at this point. But there are so many silver plated True Tone altos still floating around with such a relative scarcity of brass examples I would say at the least that silver plate wasn't such an expensive option that lots of people didn't plump for it. Judging from the '20's ads you see - maybe it went like this - "Sure, Pop, you can get your kid this fine basic model Buescher brass finish sax. But for just a few cents more a month, you can get him a spiffy silver plated horn, just like the pros use!! Think how swell it'll look lying in that plush purple case under the tree when he opens it Christmas morning!!"

Just curious in regard to the New Aristocrat. What's the number/markings on the neck?

It's an "01" neck.

Definitely not.

Gold is the most valuable followed by silver, just as one would expect. True Tone bare brass or first lacquer altos sell on ebay, on average, about 25% less than silver. The scarcity of original bare brass is due to the wide spread passion for lacquer when it was first developed in the 30s. It slowed the corrosion that naturally occurs with bare brass and made the musician's instrument look spiffier on the bandstand. Up until the last 20 or 30 years many manufacturers, including Buescher, offered factory re-lacquer. Lacquer is a temporary finish for those who don't care for or can't afford silver or gold. The modern bare brass instruments, IMHO, are for lunatics.

I think that's about right with regards to price, regarding the TT horns. Now and then you will see a very clean brass horn that bucks the trend; I know some people don't like the looks or caring for a silver plate horn & will seek brass horns out.

As far as lacquer as a temporary protective finish goes, Buescher certainly didn't tout it as anything other than that; I've seen printed Buescher notices in old sax and brass cases basically saying that the lacquer finish is there to protect the horn after it leaves the factory, and once you buy it you shouldn't expect it to last forever.

I can buy that. Do you use anything on them to keep them from tarnishing? Do silver anti-tarnish strips in the case do any good for brass?

Well, I've got an old bare-brass trumpet. Granted, it's a lot easier to take apart and clean than a sax, but all I do is wipe it down after playing and now and then apply a coat of Renaissance Wax. I've had it a couple of years now and the finish hasn't even started to get dull, though there's some interesting spotting on the bell where it gets dripped on from the water-keys when it's sitting on its stand.

Actually, that's what makes me wary of a bare brass saxophone. A lot of moisture drips out of the tone holes and onto the outside of the horn (at least for me, I guess I'm a spitty player). I worry that the key work & areas between tone holes especially would start to look pretty grotty. Although, some of that dripping on the trumpet is also going to have oil from the valves or grease from the slides in it, which wouldn't be the case so much on a sax.

 

[bruce bailey]

PaulWL...try oiling up those keys that are noisy as I find the if they are a bit loose or dry, the corks will magnify the noise.