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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I was wondering if this is a 1930’s Buescher Aristocrat 1 Stencil, or
from the 1960’s
 

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Looks like a late 30's or 1940's horn to me, made by EBICo. (Buescher subsidiary?). If it is a Buescher, it has the small bell of the series 1. It is probably the same or very similar horn to the 30's Bundy's with the ornate floral engravings.

I have never been clear on whether these are identical to Buescher body tubes, bells, necks, etc. because from what I understand,... EBICo had their own separate manufacturing facility. Most of us kind of assume Buescher supplied some parts or tooling, but it seems like a big grey area historically.

Maybe someone knows for sure?
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Yes this shop is generally overpriced, but if it would be a 1930’s Aristocrat body tube I think
The price would be ok
I am looking for the dark Aristocrat 1 sound…
 

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I don't think this would be an Aristo, or even a 30A stencil...note the octave key actuator...it is the old style type, as found on early (series 1 & 2) True Tones. It is curious bc this was fairly outdated by the time most makers had gone to same side bell keys. It may be an oddball stencil cobbled together with leftover parts.
 

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I don't think this would be an Aristo, or even a 30A stencil...note the octave key actuator...it is the old style type, as found on early (series 1 & 2) True Tones. It is curious bc this was fairly outdated by the time most makers had gone to same side bell keys. It may be an oddball stencil cobbled together with leftover parts.
Same horn as this?


Here is one I have engraved "Windsor" that looks identical to the the OP's talking about. I bet the OP's example has the same pinky cluster as mine or the more advanced clover leaf design like the Wayne Shorter Bundy. Mine is an amazing sounding horn by the way. It's over due for a pad job but the tone is very lush and seductive with a really voice-like singing quality. Palm key notes scream.
Brown Sleeve Musical instrument Metal Fashion accessory
Musical instrument Wood Door Magenta Metal
 

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Here is a lengthy thread to dig around in. SOTW badenia put together a history pile compiling numerous horns, serial numbers, and publications.

Here is a good timeline by badenia from post #241 of that thread:

1) 1916 - CD Greenleaf (Conn Ltd) & AH Beardsley (Miles) buy control of Buescher, saving it from bankruptcy.
2) 1919 - CD Greenleaf & AH Beardsley incorporate the Elkhart Band Instrument Co as subsidiary of Buescher.
3) 1922 - 3rd Qtr EBIC begins making saxes only, including stencils, on Main St. Uses 50,000 serial numbers.
4) 1923 - Elkhart moves to Plum St.
6) 1926 - Buescher ceases stencils. All stencils going forward are EBIC models and serials. This may actually be 1928 as current serial systems seem to be in error for Buescher. Note: I am reviewing Buescher also.
5) 1927 - Late year a new EBIC serial system established ####-Yr.
6) 1928 - EBIC moves to Jackson St, into a new addition to Buescher Block (separate address). EBIC adds other band instruments to line. All stencils are EBIC models under its serial system and from its area of Buescher Block. EBIC becomes wholly owned subsidiary of Buescher. Note: prior to this the owners of Buescher also owned Elkhart. Elkhart shares were converted to Buescher. Contrary to popular belief there was no purchase or buyout.
7) 1929 - Mid year, Elkhart starts a new serial system at 1. Pan American augments brass line.
8) 1937 - Elkhart launches Windsor line - R serials.
8) 1942 - Mid year, Elkhart along with Buescher ceases consumer production for WWII. Windsor line ends.
9) 1945 - Late year Buescher reopens consumer production.
10) 1948 - Elkhart reopens. Engraving drops "Band Inst Co"
11) 1950 - Elkhart introduces "Built by Buescher" engraving.
12) 1955 - Elkhart changes engraving adding oval around Elkhead in Heart.
13) 1958 - Charles Greenleaf buys control of Buescher from rest of Greenleaf family after Leland takes reigns of Conn Ltd. Elkhart brand is dropped with Aristocrat carrying Elkhart serial numbers. There is some sax keying differences between these Aristocrats and those under the Buescher system.
14) 1960 - Elkhart brand dropped, replaced by relaunched Windsor brand under Buescher serial system as Windsor by Buescher, but uses EBIC as "maker,"
15) 1963 - Buescher bought by Selmer USA's Bundy subsidiary. The Elkhart brand is transferred but not used. Windsor ceases.
 

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I'm no expert on the Aristocrat types question. One note, the stencils all have the flat side E key like the Elkhart. Aristocrats of all types seem to have the shaped side E key, at least until well after the Selmer buyout when the Aristocrat name trickled down to less-than-top-line saxes.
 

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I'm no expert on the Aristocrat types question. One note, the stencils all have the flat side E key like the Elkhart. Aristocrats of all types seem to have the shaped side E key, at least until well after the Selmer buyout when the Aristocrat name trickled down to less-than-top-line saxes.
I think all or most second line or stencil horns have watered down key work. What would be interesting to know is if the neck and body of the horn is the same as a Aristocrat. True Tone, etc...

Hey, what is that sax-master in your avatar?
 

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I think all or most second line or stencil horns have watered down key work. What would be interesting to know is if the neck and body of the horn is the same as a Aristocrat. True Tone, etc...

Hey, what is that sax-master in your avatar?
Yeah, I meant also that the sax in the OP has the flat side key, suggesting it is like the other stencils. I don't know enough to know whether the Elkhart and Aristocrat bodies and necks are similar, maybe @JayeLID does.

The "Sax-Master" in my avatar is a Dorfler & Jorka stencil, I believe. Could take some more pictures of it, essentially it looks like this "National" and others on Helen's site: German and Czech Makes & Models / Dorfler and Jorka / National / Eb alto 9758 - although it has red leather pads, which I think are original. And missing the #@!$ unusual neck screw. Using it as my avatar is ironic since I am a Sax-Novice.
 
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