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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Strange question, I understand.

Here's why I ask it: a little over a week ago, I purchased this Berg Larsen 105/3M tenor piece secondhand. Now, it's my understanding that the "3" indicates a lack of a baffle, with "0" being a very high baffle.

Yet, looking into the mouthpiece, I see... well, a baffle:




Could it be that Berg Larsen made a mistake? Or is that seriously not a baffle? (please excuse me if this is such a trivial question)
 

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That is very definitely a baffle. With a pronounced step where it falls into the chamber (which can have a pretty big effect). As I understand it, on Bergs, '0' is the highest baffle and '3' is the lowest. But even the '3' is a fairly pronounced baffle, as the photo shows.

We're always talking about high and low baffles, but there is a complete gradation among mpcs. Even those with "no" baffle, usually have at least a tiny 'roll-over' baffle near the tip, that may be barely visible to the eye. The total absence of a baffle would result in a very dark, 'tubby' sound, not what most players would want and I don't think such mpcs are to be found.

What matters is the height, length, and shape (rounded, scooped, flat, step, etc) of a baffle and very minor changes to any of those parameters can make a big difference.

How do you like that Berg? Is it close to what you were looking for?
 

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Your assumption about the baffle is incorrect. A Berg 3 chamber has a baffle but its the highest one, or farthest from the reed. The 0 chamber is the lowest one, or closest to the reed. So, there are 4 baffles in all, and they are crammed into a space of about 1/8" at the throat, so there's not a lot of difference between sequential numbers. However, players can tell a lot of difference between say a 0 and a 1. So you can see the step at the end of the baffle that wouldn't be there if the roof of the chamber was at its highest possible position. With the 'bullet chamber' Berg, the 'bullet cut' also exists with a 3 chamber which would not be possible if there was no baffle.
 

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Your assumption about the baffle is incorrect. A Berg 3 chamber has a baffle but its the highest one, or farthest from the reed. The 0 chamber is the lowest one, or closest to the reed.
When folks speak of high and low baffles these days, they mean the opposite of what you proffer. High baffle is up towards the opening for the reed, low baffle is down towards the floor of the opening.
 

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The link ( no pun intended) you provided shows that a #3 berg has no baffle. But, the OP pics seem to indicate otherwise.
I interpret the following statement from that link as inferring that all models have baffles, just some with different sizes and effects.

"The degree of edge or brightness the player obtains is dictated by the size of the tone chamber. Referring to the diagram above, the more 'baffle' that is built into the tone chamber, the more edge the tone will have. A '0' tone chamber will have the most edge and a '3' will have a more mellow tone."
 

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When folks speak of high and low baffles these days, they mean the opposite of what you proffer. High baffle is up towards the opening for the reed, low baffle is down towards the floor of the opening.
That's just semantics - doesn't change the meaning. The things people say don't really interest me, as most people are rather stupid. But to make what they say work, all you have to do is turn the mouthpiece upside down. Now the 'high' baffle is closer to the reed and the 'low' baffle is farther away. I just look at it with the mouthpiece in playing position, which makes it the other way. BTW, there is no 'floor of the opening' - there is only the plane of the surface of the table extended, which for this purpose is the same plane as the flat side of the reed.
 

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The problem is the cheesy graphics on the website not being accurate. It's a little confusing that the baffles are not accurately pictured in relationship to each other, but to indicate no baffle for the #3 is really confusing.

But now I know that a Berg #3 does not have "zero" baffle while the Berg #0 has either the highest or the lowest baffle. We have cleared that up.

Mark
 

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I thought all Bergs had Baffles. 3 being the lowest or mellow-ist.
 

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That's just semantics - doesn't change the meaning.
True, it's semantics, but we need some agreement on terms. I don't know which is the correct term, except I've heard the term 'high baffle' in reference to a mpc with a baffle raised toward the reed. But I agree that only makes sense when you hold the mpc upside down. Maybe we should use the term 'large' baffle, as opposed to 'small' baffle (like a rollover baffle), and for something in between, a 'medium' baffle.

Anyway, a large baffle (closer to the reed) will tend to speed (squeeze?) the air stream and result in a brighter, edgier sound. Also it seems that a sharp step or drop off, as opposed to rounded or bullet-shaped, also increases edge. A large baffle can be mitigated to some extent by a larger tip or larger chamber, both of which increase 'warmth' or reduce brightness. And so on....
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
That is very definitely a baffle. With a pronounced step where it falls into the chamber (which can have a pretty big effect). As I understand it, on Bergs, '0' is the highest baffle and '3' is the lowest. But even the '3' is a fairly pronounced baffle, as the photo shows.

We're always talking about high and low baffles, but there is a complete gradation among mpcs. Even those with "no" baffle, usually have at least a tiny 'roll-over' baffle near the tip, that may be barely visible to the eye. The total absence of a baffle would result in a very dark, 'tubby' sound, not what most players would want and I don't think such mpcs are to be found.

What matters is the height, length, and shape (rounded, scooped, flat, step, etc) of a baffle and very minor changes to any of those parameters can make a big difference.

How do you like that Berg? Is it close to what you were looking for?
I think you and DrWill definitely understood what I meant- I've seen that link before, and there does appear to be a significant discrepancy between the two mouthpiece baffles. I tried googling pictures of different Berg Larsen sizes, and didn't get much luck (so I could compare the different baffle sizes).

The Berg is definitely closer toward the sound I had in mind. I think it's flexible enough for now; I should meet the mouthpiece halfway by improving my air support and embouchure. I'd be interested in trading for a 105/2M, maybe, but I'm happy with what I have (for now, lol).

Thanks to all those who took time to answer my question!
 

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That is a Berg Scoopbill and the 3 is the lowest and darkest of the Berg baffles. The M is the longer facing as opposed to SMS European or shorter facing if my memory serves correctly.

Looks like a relatively modern Berg. If the M were offset it and it had a denim pattern on the table then it would be an older Berg.

That's a pretty good balance if the 105 is correct. As was stated Berg's are notoriously marked different from their actual measurements.

Maybe a better photo without the ligature on and a picture of the specs.
 

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True, it's semantics, but we need some agreement on terms. I don't know which is the correct term, except I've heard the term 'high baffle' in reference to a mpc with a baffle raised toward the reed. But I agree that only makes sense when you hold the mpc upside down. Maybe we should use the term 'large' baffle, as opposed to 'small' baffle (like a rollover baffle), and for something in between, a 'medium' baffle.

Anyway, a large baffle (closer to the reed) will tend to speed (squeeze?) the air stream and result in a brighter, edgier sound. Also it seems that a sharp step or drop off, as opposed to rounded or bullet-shaped, also increases edge. A large baffle can be mitigated to some extent by a larger tip or larger chamber, both of which increase 'warmth' or reduce brightness. And so on....
Please stop trying to be diplomatic. Every Mouthpiece expert I know terms a baffle closest to the reed as a high baffle. A baffle farthest away is called a low baffle.

Words have to mean something. We don't drive around in our recliner even though we are seated while driving.

No offense to 1saxman but the vernacular is not going to change for one person.
 

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The problem is the cheesy graphics on the website not being accurate. It's a little confusing that the baffles are not accurately pictured in relationship to each other, but to indicate no baffle for the #3 is really confusing.

But now I know that a Berg #3 does not have "zero" baffle while the Berg #0 has either the highest or the lowest baffle. We have cleared that up.

Mark
Yeah you confused the issue like a pro.:twisted:
 

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Please stop trying to be diplomatic. Every Mouthpiece expert I know terms a baffle closet to the reed as a high baffle. A baffle farthest away is called a low baffle.

Words have to mean something. We don't drive around in our recliner even though we are seated while driving.

No offense to 1saxman but the vernacular is not going to change for one person.
+1 and be done with it.
 

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Please stop trying to be diplomatic. Every Mouthpiece expert I know terms a baffle closet to the reed as a high baffle. A baffle farthest away is called a low baffle..
LOL, didn't realize I was being a diplomat, just trying to be clear about what I meant when I said high baffle. There's enough confusion of terms around here w/o adding to it. Anyway, as you state it is how I've always understood the terms.
 

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LOL, didn't realize I was being a diplomat, just trying to be clear about what I meant when I said high baffle. There's enough confusion of terms around here w/o adding to it. Anyway, as you state it is how I've always understood the terms.
Well, if you need 16 more posts (er...17 mine included) to discuss if a Berg 3 chamber has a baffle after studying the link in post 2# I think you need to be a diplomat :)
 
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