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Well, I'm "that person"...

Of course I can't help if you plan to intentionally misunderstand me for your own purposes of self-aggrandizement, but I will point out that the thing that started off this controversy was YOUR claim that the neo-swing phenomenon was of no importance because it wasn't important in Milwaukee. I'm not the only person that provided counter evidence. Remember, if you make an assertion that something is "of no importance" it only takes one counterexample to disprove the claim, which both Pete T. and I provided. Whereas if you make that assertion, you can only prove the claim by providing evidence from all locations.

So, if I'm geographically restricted to my personal experience, which I am, so you are too (sorry dude, Milwaukee may have a great big music festival but that doesn't make it a center of musical innovation. Sturgis ND has the world's largest motorcycle rally, but the centers of motorcycle innovation and development are Kobe, Tokyo, Hamamatsu, Genoa, Bologna, and (!) Milwaukee, etc.)

But that's all OK, I'll bow down to your superior knowledge and stay quiet from now. My actual experience is not important.
I have no need for "self aggrandizement" as you say. Never had, never will. This whole subject started off with the future of jazz, remember? Someone, not me, mentioned Big Bad Voodoo Daddy, a swing. That was retro-swing, a different animal, and it had some jazz in it...improvisation. I used to run 5 bands here, and my agent wanted me to start a band like that, and offered me a lot of money to do it. I turned it down, and that trend started fading out in a few months.

I keep getting accused of things that are not true, and I let a lot of them slide. Example: I will point out that the thing that started off this controversy was YOUR claim that the neo-swing phenomenon was of no importance because it wasn't important in Milwaukee. That is completely false, what you claim I claimed is pure B.S., and it has nothing to do with Milwaukee. I worked at Hal Leonard, the world's largest music publisher in the keyboard department. They only bought the rights to print music that was on the charts, and they printed way more than anyone else. The retro-swing thing never came on their radar to my memory. Stray Cat Strut, yes, that made it, and I worked on it, but that was rockabilly, which was a trend, and they did not publish anymore of it. I worked on their jazz fake book of over 600 songs, and they also publish the real books. The retro-swing stuff is not in them. I was aware not only of what was going on in the country, but the world, because they are that big. So I guess I have proved my claim by just now "by providing evidence from all locations." I rest my case.
 

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Yeah, i could see it being a great show. the jazz getting replaced in modern years kind of sucks, as theres some great jazz happening still, but I've heard Summerfest is a heck of a time (if you can remember any of it - cheeseheads sure can put down some beer :) ).

But, as you said, to stay on topic - looking at the list I posted, A Jazz festival (Montreal Jazz Festival) is the 3rd most attended festival ever (as of 2019 - all of these were cancelled last year) - which bodes pretty well for the current state of jazz I'd like to think. Also, I now think I know where I want to go to my next music festival - Hopefully Montreal is open in time for the festival this year :D
I agree with you, outdoor festivals are weather dependent. SUMMERFEST had two years where we got hit with 3 days of rain, thunderstorms, and having to shut it down for 3 days out of 10 greatly affects attendance. Last year and this year they had to cancel SUMMERFEST. This year they rescheduled it for 4 weekends in the fall, and that is up in the air. Kids are back in school, people are working and not on vacation, it is too cold for most bands to play, because it gets nippy and rainy here then. If it happens, it will not draw that much...wrong time of year. I like to see all music festivals do well. It is good for musicians, and the live music business. Now, can we return to the future of jazz? I have no interest in the future of dance.
 

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Clearly you don’t get it, so by all means carry on making friends here! I was a very annoying teenager (40+ years ago) and my Mom often said if I say the sky is blue you’ll say it’s gray. I would and not really sure why. Well, I grew out of it and my parents actually liked me as an adult. There are no absolutes and your opinion is just that, so please stop trying so hard to fix us all! You earn respect by how you treat others in life, not by your resume!
I am retired, and have no need for a resume. I agree, we all have opinions, and are entitled to them. I am not interested in winning a popularity contest. If you verbally attack me, I will let it slide for a bit, but after that I push back. If you attribute things to me that are not true, I will call you out on it, and push back. I try not to give anyone crap, but I will never take crap from anyone. If you have a problem with that, then go kick rocks.
 

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RE: Name Dropping Yeah, well I live just outside of Pittsburgh and I can get to Stanley Turrentine's grave in 20 minutes so yinz can take that!
 

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The Ska band I played with for a while the year before Covid had a full book of gigs in festivals, pubs, parties etc; the music itself was effectively three-horn jazz with heads and solos (Take Five (in 4/4!), Barbados, Cape Verdean Blues, and many other classic jazz, latin and reggae numbers) - but with that Ska off-beat the punters LOVED it - teens, 20s-70s danced and got happy and the venues were packed.

So, here's a simple question: is it actually the classic swing jazz rhythms that are killing jazz (hard to dance to, more for listening and stroking one's beard to in a club) while on the contrary, jazz-experienced horn and guitar leads can still make money, take solos, do section work (and retain a vibrant audience) as long as they can adapt to a newer rhythmic style?
 

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T
So, here's a simple question: is it actually the classic swing jazz rhythms that are killing jazz (hard to dance to, more for listening and stroking one's beard to in a club) while on the contrary, jazz-experienced horn and guitar leads can still make money, take solos, do section work (and retain a vibrant audience) as long as they can adapt to a newer rhythmic style?
I'm totally with your general point but would like to add that the two aren't mutually exclusive. I know lots of great jazz players who do both - functions, pop bands, reggae/ska/afro beat, pit work etc. AND play jazz both for functions and in clubs for listening (and stroking one' beard if so inclind). And also for their own enjoyment.

Everyone can carve out their own path - some play more functions/weddings, others session for pop acts, some teach more, others stick to playing 100% jazz gigs, some do all of the above. I know some great players who personally would rather have a day job or teach and only play the music they love (with less consideration of the fee). For others they just want to be playing and have a less "purist" attitude. Neither is right or wrong. But in my view is there is 100% a market for jazz
 

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I guess jazz is not dead or I would not be the 148th post, it may not be profitable for everyone but its alive.
 

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Just like most things, one needs to adapt as time moves on. There are plenty of people playing jazz right now for thousands upon thousands of people around the world with the power of the internet. Jazz is just one piece of the musician puzzle and there is definitely a place for it in 2021. There are lots of people building their own brands right now based around this style of music, and there are LOTS of people who are willing to listen and support.
 

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I was present at the time too.

The "swing revival" of the 1990s was not of the size of the swing movement of the 1930s. No one disputes that. Swing in the 30s was the equivalent of rock and roll in the 1950s and 1960s.

But it was definitely NOT a fringe movement that no one except a tiny group of cognoscenti was aware of. As I said, there were multiple clubs in Dallas that were PACKED with dancers three nights a week plus swing dancing lessons everywhere you turned around plus big dances held regularly. Distinct from the original swing movement was the close relationship of neo-swing to rockabilly. Lots of musicians then (the 90s) and now have moved back and forth between those genres.

Maybe Milwaukee and Florida were out of the mainstream for the swing revival. Let's face it, Milwaukee and Florida are not places you think of when you think of musical hotbeds. NYC, Chicago, LA, Austin, those are the places I'd be looking to see whether a thread in musical popularity has any influence. (Again, I'm not, nor is anyone else, claiming that the neo-swing revival was anything near as important as the original movement, so there's no sense in arguing against this claim that no one's made.)

The experience of the TD ghost band in 1976 is irrelevant to the swing revival of 1995. In 1976 interest in jazz and especially swing was at the lowest ebb ever, probably. All musical attention of young people was focused on disco, early punk, new wave, rock, and country. If they had any attention left for jazz it all went to fusion.
Chapel Hill NC had a bit of that scene as well, centered more or less around the Squirrell Nut Zippers but there were other local ad-hoc outfits around, swing dancing etc
 

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There are many references to touring shows and album releases by known artists that proved to be successful for awhile. I think we have to make a distinction between those phenomena and clubs that feature live jazz at least three nights out of the week and actually pay union scale and help support jazz musicians. There is really a difference. A big name jazz musician can draw several thousand people to a venue 1-2 nights every few years in some cities. A city that relies upon tourism (such as New Orleans) may have 3-4 jazz clubs (if that many now) regularly attended by tourists, but how many cities outside of New York City or perhaps Chicago have several jazz clubs and events that actually support jazz musicians? Not many, I suspect.

Jazz is on life support through fellowships and grants. How many of us have been endowed with either?
 

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This thread gets funnier by the minute.....There seems to be a lot of angry pseudo jazz greats out there.....Dave Pollack has the right mindset IMO.......
 

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Year after year for an entire life we study, practice, and buy lots of expensive gear for "THAT" perfect sound. Then the first gig after Covid is Wallpaper Jazz in the corner - "Not to loud." Honestly, Pentatonic Scales on a Yamaha Beginner set-up would work. This morning, I spend an hour and a half moving a 1 measure minor ii-V pattern around all keys today. Are we ALL CRAZY!!!!!

What are those poor kids getting Jazz Degrees going to do?
For decades children have grown up in a musical environment with very little complexity, so the don't learn to understand the language of jazz or classical music. How good at speaking or comprehending the English language would you be if you grew up in an environment with a 200-word vocabulary?
Another audience problem: About 15 years ago I played for about three months every Monday night at a club near Chicago in a quartet with excellent musicians. Even though we attracted an audience of 300-500 jazz fans, some of whom travelled 30-40 miles to hear us, their average age was about 75. After one packed night I walked to the bar and asked the bartender what the take was. "$250. All they drink is water and soft drinks." he answered.
That jazz loving demographic doesn't drink as much, especially if they're driving.
I also think that the ways jazz is taught in schools results in music that is less exciting and emotionally communicative. The old school way of learning from older musicians at jam sessions and on the stand more deeply taught every aspect the music.
 

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I also think that the ways jazz is taught in schools results in music that is less exciting and emotionally communicative. The old school way of learning from older musicians at jam sessions and on the stand more deeply taught every aspect the music.
I don't know about music schools -- I think they are a way to network and meet the future great players in your generation with intensive focus -- but as I said early in this thread, there are still frequent jam sessions in major cities where you can learn from great musicians young and old. This is my major way of advancing (or uh, was). A combination of going to jams regularly and shedding at home to prepare is a great way to improve. Playing live, especially playing tunes you haven't played before, challenges in so many ways. Like learning when to play and when not to play, how many choruses to take, where you fit in, how to share the stage and support others so everybody wins, what people want to hear and don't want to hear, seeing what others do and being amazed and inspired, learning to interact with the rhythm section, etc etc etc. Invaluable, I agree.
 

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I don't know about music schools -- I think they are a way to network and meet the future great players in your generation with intensive focus -- but as I said early in this thread, there are still frequent jam sessions in major cities where you can learn from great musicians young and old. This is my major way of advancing (or uh, was). A combination of going to jams regularly and shedding at home to prepare is a great way to improve. Playing live, especially playing tunes you haven't played before, challenges in so many ways. Like learning when to play and when not to play, how many choruses to take, where you fit in, how to share the stage and support others so everybody wins, what people want to hear and don't want to hear, seeing what others do and being amazed and inspired, learning to interact with the rhythm section, etc etc etc. Invaluable, I agree.
Agree. Had a very similar background in Detroit and Chicago. One thing I can't figure out is that a fair number of younger academically trained musicians, including some who became well known over the last 20 years or so, would attend Chicago jam sessions, play some licks they knew and basically ignore what the other musicians were doing. Often got lost in the form. What were they thinking?
 

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Never heard of your festival, so it must be a well kept secret. SUMMERFEST, which happens in Milwaukee each summer, normally, is billed as the world's largest music festival. Nobody has ever challenged that claim. It was cancelled last year because of COVID, and they postponed it to a few days in the fall this year because of COVID, so it will not be quite as large this year. SUMMERFEST from its beginning has a JAZZ OASIS which was built and sponsored by Miller Beer. I played on it for several decades. Jazz has faded away, and just does not draw a crowd anymore, so other forms of music has replaced it. It still exists, but not the way it once did in the 70's 80's, and 90's. Here is the link for the festival, and I would say it disproves the claim by another that "Milwaukee is not exactly a hotbed of music."

If Donauinselfest is really the world's largest music festival, then they should sue SUMMERFEST for false advertising. So far in five decades, nobody has, and it continues to be the WORLD'S largest music festival.
You're becoming shrill. Even I've heard of Donauinselfest . It's a huge Festival in Vienna. Google it.

And maybe get out a little more.
Peace.
 

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You're becoming shrill. Even I've heard of Donauinselfest . It's a huge Festival in Vienna. Google it.

And maybe get out a little more.
Peace.
Oh. I see that he's been banned. Hmmm... He could have become legendary.
 

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A market for jazz. Is there a market for any music? The market will probably never be the same, but the spirit of jazz will live on in new players that still sell and get awards. Is there a market for music that relies on mostly improvisation for its purity? If so, there's a market for jazz. It just doesn't sound the same.
 

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Oh. I see that he's been banned. Hmmm... He could have become legendary.
Well, he was no Alon, that's for sure. We'll have to wait and see how many times he he tries to sneak back in with different user names before we grant him Legend status. :ROFLMAO:
 
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