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Is there any musical value to use in improvisation the dodecaphonic fragments?
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I don't exactly get the connection between your question and the audio files.
I personally would not practice twelve-tone-rows in all transpositions for improvisation.
I remember an etude book with "patterns from coltrane and schoenberg" (oliver nelson?) and found that rather ridicolous.
I personally would not practice twelve-tone-rows in all transpositions for improvisation.
I remember an etude book with "patterns from coltrane and schoenberg" (oliver nelson?) and found that rather ridicolous.
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My question is for those who are interested and know how to analyze music. From this position it is possible to continue the dialogue.
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That "Dodeca Blues" was the damnedest example of blues I've ever heard.
But the lick at bar 16 & 19 was kind of cool...
I also liked some of the "The Riff" example.
But what makes these dodecaphonic fragments? I mean, what's that mean? I know what a dodecahedron is (the crystal form of garnet). Is there some relationship there?
p.s. Ok, just googled it. 12-tone row. But I can't quite tell how these examples fit with that. Wait a minute. Now I think I see. Using all 12 tones of the chromatic scale. I'm just thinking out loud as I write. Let me know if I'm on the right track here. Seems pretty complex.
But the lick at bar 16 & 19 was kind of cool...
I also liked some of the "The Riff" example.
But what makes these dodecaphonic fragments? I mean, what's that mean? I know what a dodecahedron is (the crystal form of garnet). Is there some relationship there?
p.s. Ok, just googled it. 12-tone row. But I can't quite tell how these examples fit with that. Wait a minute. Now I think I see. Using all 12 tones of the chromatic scale. I'm just thinking out loud as I write. Let me know if I'm on the right track here. Seems pretty complex.
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In this ensemble we practiced the synthesis of tonal, modal, atonal and dodecaphonic elements. Practice shows that the rejection of tonality and functionality raises the factor of expressiveness of melodic intonation (Shoenberg's Sprechgesang) , which is suitable for an advanced stage of development.
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I usually use my foot to analyze music. If it's tapping the music is probably pretty good ...
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The Dodecaphonic Fragments? Sounds like a psychedelic band of the 60's.
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Yes, maybe we were a little late ... After the posthumous release of Roman Kunsman's CD "Heavy Skies", jazz critic Hat Hentoff wrote: "He was born in the wrong place at the wrong time."
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When I went The Grove School of Music one teacher who wrote alot for movies had many 12 tone rows that he used.
Some were very consonant others not.
He was very proficient at writing much music fast with his rows.
I do use dissonance in my solos similar to dodecaphonic fragments but over short segments of time, especially at the end of a tune as a cadenza.
Some were very consonant others not.
He was very proficient at writing much music fast with his rows.
I do use dissonance in my solos similar to dodecaphonic fragments but over short segments of time, especially at the end of a tune as a cadenza.
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You need to understand: what exactly changes the "dodecaphonization" of the tonal melody.
The first thing that happens: harmonic logic disappears; the dissonance factor created in the vertical interaction of melodic pitches and harmony switched to the horizontal interaction of intervals in their sequence, which strengthened melodic expressiveness (just remember that atonalists belong to the musical direction of Expressionism). The vocal logic of the melody was already initially driven out by boppers, so this quality escalated, but it did not become fundamentally new. The rhythmic structures, phrasing, articulation remained unchanged; but most important: a melodic curve, i.e. intonation and its character have not changed much.
Thus, it is impossible to talk about the loss of musical logic, but its partial transfer to other rails.
The first thing that happens: harmonic logic disappears; the dissonance factor created in the vertical interaction of melodic pitches and harmony switched to the horizontal interaction of intervals in their sequence, which strengthened melodic expressiveness (just remember that atonalists belong to the musical direction of Expressionism). The vocal logic of the melody was already initially driven out by boppers, so this quality escalated, but it did not become fundamentally new. The rhythmic structures, phrasing, articulation remained unchanged; but most important: a melodic curve, i.e. intonation and its character have not changed much.
Thus, it is impossible to talk about the loss of musical logic, but its partial transfer to other rails.
You are OK! Here he had problems with the analysis of music (and other analyzes) :
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I analyzed a lot of Schoenberg's music from various periods of his career as a composer, but I don't get your point.
Playing a twelve-tone-row over a twelve-bar-blues doesn't make the music atonal. And that some people are calling this music expressionism doesn't add an expression to this music. And Schoenberg developed his "Sprechgesang" in his pre-dodekaphonic pieces. It was used in the "Gurrelieder" "Pierrot lunaire" and the "Jakobsleiter", (later in Moses und Aron and others), but never organized in a serial way.
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The 12-tone approach was something a lot of jazz players experimented with:
John Coltrane 12-tone "Miles' Mode" from 1962 --
Woody Shaw (trumpet) was definitely experimenting with 12-tone structures, you hear it on many of his solos.
Anthony Braxton as well.
Of currently active musicians, John O'Gallagher is an adept 12-tone improvisor, and has written a book on the topic --
John Coltrane 12-tone "Miles' Mode" from 1962 --
Woody Shaw (trumpet) was definitely experimenting with 12-tone structures, you hear it on many of his solos.
Anthony Braxton as well.
Of currently active musicians, John O'Gallagher is an adept 12-tone improvisor, and has written a book on the topic --
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Very good! Now, using your experience, you can analyze the music on the proposed recordings ; and then it becomes clearer.
I respect your opinion, but do not agree with him; it is not consistent with my experience.
You are right and wrong at the same time! The calendar order shows that Sprechgezang first appeared in later German romantic operas - as an alternative to recitative; The Sprechstimme technique was proposed by Engbert Humperdink; Schoenberg borrowed it and changed it in accordance with its aesthetics; Joseph Hauer and Arnold Schoenberg shared the priority for dodecaphonic technique 10 years later. All these are stages of the same process of gradual rejection of the tonical and tonal foundations of European music, the properties of functionality in harmony, concluded in each chord; and turning the chord into a vertical melody. Sprechgesang to some extent returned, or tried to return, the properties of speech-melody, which essentially does not contain fixed musical pitches.
The lack of precise rules for atonal writing created the conditions for the unexpected appearance of a sense of tonicity and tonality. The rules of dodecaphony completely prevent this. Therefore, the above video
cannot serve as an example of atonal music; it violates the rule in dodecaphony: "The melodic line should avoid sequences of tones that create the feeling of tonal chords."
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BDE - C # F # G # - AGC - BbFEb, the last 3 trichords being permutations in relation to each other. A variety of intonations prevents the feeling of dry exercise.
In bars 90-91, another dodecaphonic series appears, which is also based on a pentatonic chain of trichords ,or so. .
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But what is your point/your goal, jazzman1945? Your bringing up a question (the value of dodecaphonic fragments in improvised music) and posting some videos somehow related to it. Now, do you want members to give their opinion (if so, my answer would be: it depends)? Or do you have an answer for yourself and want to share it with the world? Is there any practical consequence for us improvisers reading this? Or is this just an academic discussion?
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