[ErikJon]

Dear friends,

For years I've been hearing that "minor seventh chords are used in jazz more than minor chords."

To that I say, "Well, doesn't that depend on the chord being improvised on?"

In other words, if the chord does not call for a flat seventh, why should I put one in? On the other hand, if the arrangement itself specifically substitutes a m7 for a minor chord (compared to the original version of the song), by all means, I think the flat 7th is obviously called for.

Am I missing something? Is it recommended not to practice the natural minor scales, but only the minor seventh scales?

I've got a book of scales called "Changes" by Larry Norred, that shows the minor scale in all 12 keys the same as the m7 in all 12 keys. Two separate pages with identical scales on each. That's not right.

Finally I come across the Joseph Viola series, and he gives the student exercises on both forms: minor and minor seventh, each with a different formula spelled out, of course (at least the arpeggios).

So, whether or not one is more common than the other is irrelevant, isn't it? I should practice each, and then use whichever one is called for on the sheet music for each song. I understand that the overall sound of the chord is not that different from one to the other, but the seventh note is.

A similar point is regarding diminished chords.

My instruction books seem to suggest that there is no significant difference between diminished chords and diminished seventh chords. Aebersold calls them "diminished chords," for example, but he also says, "they fit dim7" chords. He says that there are only three scales to learn.

So, then, when I see a chord change called "Edim," am I just supposed to play something from the Edim7 scale?

Is it recommended not to practice the Edim scale at all, but only the Edim7 scale, for example?

 

[Aquarian]

I'm not even sure where to start, you have a lot of things you're turning over here. Keep in mind that chord scales are a tool, and that what is "right" depends on how the melodic line moves. I would say you are correct that there is not one "right" scale over a given chord and the notes depend on context including the written melody and, crucially, what the soloist is doing. There is a jazz anecdote I can't fully remember but which has the example of Lester Young playing a major 7th on a dominant seven chord. What sounds right depends on how you justify it, it's not like math where there is a single right answer to the equation.

It's very important you keep in mind harmony and chords themselves are not chord scales.

I am not sure what you mean by a "minor 7 scale" vs a natural minor, do you mean a Dorian scale? That makes sense in the context of a major ii-V pattern but if the song is in D minor, the natural minor is going to work pretty well in many places. It would be foolish at best to ignore the natural minor.

I know this is a partial answer but in any case there isn't a grand unifying theory of music, there is functional harmony but even in standard songs there are countless examples of things that don't fit "functionally" but which work.

 

[Pete Thomas]

So, then, when I see a chord change called "Edim," am I just supposed to play something from the Edim7 scale?

Is it recommended not to practice the Edim scale at all, but only the Edim7 scale, for example?

I'm not sure there is such a thing as Edim7 scale. A dimiinshed scale is either a pattern of whole/half continuing or half/whole. Which one might fit an E dim chord would depend on context - find the key centre.

Again (!) formulae in impro often don't work very well

 

[Keith Ridenhour]

play chord tones and be able to approach them in a variety of ways. People have built careers doing just that K

 

[lydian]

Dear friends,

For years I've been hearing that "minor seventh chords are used in jazz more than minor chords."

To that I say, "Well, doesn't that depend on the chord being improvised on?"

In other words, if the chord does not call for a flat seventh, why should I put one in? On the other hand, if the arrangement itself specifically substitutes a m7 for a minor chord (compared to the original version of the song), by all means, I think the flat 7th is obviously called for.

Am I missing something? Is it recommended not to practice the natural minor scales, but only the minor seventh scales?

I've got a book of scales called "Changes" by Larry Norred, that shows the minor scale in all 12 keys the same as the m7 in all 12 keys. Two separate pages with identical scales on each. That's not right.

Finally I come across the Joseph Viola series, and he gives the student exercises on both forms: minor and minor seventh, each with a different formula spelled out, of course (at least the arpeggios).

So, whether or not one is more common than the other is irrelevant, isn't it? I should practice each, and then use whichever one is called for on the sheet music for each song. I understand that the overall sound of the chord is not that different from one to the other, but the seventh note is.

A similar point is regarding diminished chords.

My instruction books seem to suggest that there is no significant difference between diminished chords and diminished seventh chords. Aebersold calls them "diminished chords," for example, but he also says, "they fit dim7" chords. He says that there are only three scales to learn.

So, then, when I see a chord change called "Edim," am I just supposed to play something from the Edim7 scale?

Is it recommended not to practice the Edim scale at all, but only the Edim7 scale, for example?

If a jazz pianist sees Em, he or she will most likely play the rootless triad plus the 7th and 9th. On E7, he'll play the 9th and 13th. Upper extensions are used constantly in jazz and are at the core of be-bop. If you want to learn the language, you can't stop at triads. Of course certain passages should only use triads, but those cases are what your ears are for.

If you practice the 4 note arpeggio, you automatically learn the 3 note one by default. So why make life difficult and learn the same thing 2 different ways?

If I saw/heard Edim and my improvised line consisted only of the notes in an Edim triad, that would be pretty boring. I'd play not only the 7th but also whole step and half step approach notes. When you limit yourself to the notes of the chord or the corresponding scale, you're not playing jazz. Just look at 2 bars of any Bird solo. Half the notes aren't even in the chord or scale. It's full of embellishments that take you on a journey TO the chord/scale tones. That's what make it interesting and exciting. But you have to know those chords/scales really well to be able to do that, which is the purpose of all those exercises you're doing.

To get a handle on harmony and theory, you need to learn some basic jazz piano and a couple of voicings to understand how everything flows and resolves.

 

[ErikJon]

O.K., so I guess I try to be a little to systematic about it than I should. I've been told that about other subjects, as well.

So, essentially you are saying that a jazz player should be prepared to uses chord substitutions even when the chord does not call for them, and consequently, he will find himself practicing and playing fewer of the more basic forms, and using the more creative chords.

I hope you all will excuse the simplicity of my thinking process. I understand what you are saying now.

Thanks again.

 

[andre251]

I'm not sure there is such a thing as Edim7 scale. A dimiinshed scale is either a pattern of whole/half continuing or half/whole. Which one might fit an E dim chord would depend on context - find the key centre.

Again (!) formulae in impro often don't work very well

In the case of the diminished chord written, there *is* an implied scale. W-H-W-H diminished etc. is the implied sound within the harmony. When you see the chord it is never H-W-H-W diminished. Yes, even though you could see the chord and spell a diminished either way with the given notes, the whole-half pattern is the one that is being used.

 

[ErikJon]

Thank you

 

[skeller047]

I don’t think you got a good answer on the m vs. m7 question. Again, it depends on context

Let’s take Dm. If the current key is C major, then yes, they are the same. If the current key is D minor, then no, you can’t substitute a Dm7 for a Dm ... unless that is the sound you are going for. But there are other possible substitutions, like Dm6 or Dm-maj7.

There are two things about the questions you are asking.

One, as a sax player, you need to know all the scales and arpeggios you have brought up, down pat, as muscle memory, so that if an opportunity to play one comes up, you can do it almost without thinking. Plus a gazillion more. It’s a process. I’m 72, and I started playing saxophone 60 years ago. Every practice session I take SOMETHING through all 12 keys. The day after I die, I will take out my horn and try that new pentatonic pattern out in all 12 keys...

Two, instead of looking for a formula on how to use the scales and arpeggios you are studying, do some transcribing. Just a few bars, of a phrase you like in a tune you like. Analyze how the player used that phrase in that part of progression, then pull out iRealPro and put that progression in, improvise over it, and play that phrase every time through same part of the progression. Then take it up a 1/2 step. And another... if you can’t transcribe yet, get a transcription book and choose a phrase.

That second exercise helps you develop YOUR ear. The first exercise gets your chops in shape so you can do the second. But the key to this is not a formula, it is you developing a personal relationship, intellectual AND emotional, with each note you play. And the chords and melodies of every tune you play. Formulas are dry and academic, and music is not.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Morph1590]

I'm not even sure where to start, you have a lot of things you're turning over here. Keep in mind that chord scales are a tool, and that what is "right" depends on how the melodic line moves. I would say you are correct that there is not one "right" scale over a given chord and the notes depend on context including the written melody and, crucially, what the soloist is doing. There is a jazz anecdote I can't fully remember but which has the example of Lester Young playing a major 7th on a dominant seven chord. What sounds right depends on how you justify it, it's not like math where there is a single right answer to the equation.

It's very important you keep in mind harmony and chords themselves are not chord scales.

I am not sure what you mean by a "minor 7 scale" vs a natural minor, do you mean a Dorian scale? That makes sense in the context of a major ii-V pattern but if the song is in D minor, the natural minor is going to work pretty well in many places. It would be foolish at best to ignore the natural minor.

I know this is a partial answer but in any case there isn't a grand unifying theory of music, there is functional harmony but even in standard songs there are countless examples of things that don't fit "functionally" but which work.

This is pretty spot on I think.

- Context and the LINE you're playing are more important than playing all the correct (i.e. derived from a scale) notes. There are countless examples of players all kinds of so called "avoid" notes and sounding great...
- There isn't necessarily one correct scale but many options. Grouping notes together in scales is only one approach to improvising. I mean...you could think about all music as being played from the chromatic scale if you liked (not to be facetious).

To answer your questions more specifically... it depends on context and taste.

If the minor chord is functining as chord I (tonic minor) often a minor6 sound sounds better to my ears. So you could play dorian (omitting the 7th) or melodic minor (ascending) and include the major 7th. Althought a b7 works too...

If the minor chord is fuctining as chord iii - you could play phrygian (you might prefer to think of this has just playing in the tonic key), or dorian too, among other options.

If the minor chord is functining as chord vi - aeolian works, sound does dorian, among other options!

For diminished 7th chords: The W-H diminished scale works. Often a dim7 chord is a substitute for a dominant 7th b9 chord. E.g. C#dim = A7b9 or Bdim=G7b9, in which case (for example) playing G Ab B C D Eb F G (C harmonic minor) can sound great.

There are lots of different optinos and sounds to use, let you ear guide you. Studying other's appraoches from transcriptions or learning solos can help too.

 

[ErikJon]

O.K. I guess my problem is that I have been too concerned about the theory and not enough about the sound and context. I have been relying on definitions and formulae a little too much, as you can tell.

Apparently I opened up a whole can of worms with that question, but at least I see how the question was a bit "beside the point."

Thank you, really, for taking the time to explain those things.

 

[limpan2]

There are some good answers here and very hard to know where to start when talking about this kind of stuff.

The problem with discussing and learning Jazz Theory is that most players we listen to are far beyond the basics. But I still think it's very valuable to be able to understand basic theory before you learn everything about approaches, substitutions and so on. The important thing is to remember that people always will break these basic concepts but it's easier to do that if you know the basics (I think at least).

And btw for me a minor7 isn't a substitution for a minor chord. If we're in C Major and the chord says Dm a jazz pianist will often play Dm7 or Dm9 (as someone else wrote earlier) and thats just coloring of the chord and not really a substitution


There are two kinds of harmonic frames, We have Functional Harmony (most standards and common songs) and Nonfunctional Harmony (many of Wayne Shorter's tunes) I will write about basic Theory over Functional Harmony, I'm pretty sure that's what you are looking at.

One very common problem is that many people think that there's one scale that will sound great every time you see one chord type, for example Minor7. But as an example the thing is that an Aminor7 has different function in C Major than G major.

For example if we're in the key of C-Major and we have the chord progression:

C-Am-Dm-G Em-Am-Dm-G.

C will be C-Major scale (Ionian)
The A minor is the VI-chord and the "theoretical correct" scale will be the Natural minor (Aeolian) which is the same as the C-Major scale from A.
The D minor is the II chord and the scale will be the D-Dorian (I guess that's the one you call minor 7 scale), same as C-Major from the D.
The E minor is the III-chord and the scale will be E-Phrygian, same as C-Major from E.
G will be G-Mixolydian, same as C-Major scale from G.

If you look at the three different minor scales and count to the seventh note of the scale, you will realize that the 7th of all these minor chords is the minor 7, and thats why it's not a good idea to try to think that there's a scale for every chord type.

A jazz piano player would likely play the progression at least like this (maybe even more color notes):

CMaj7-Am7-Dm7-G7 Em7-Am7-Dm7-G7

The same scales as mentioned above will be "theoretical correct" over these chords as well.


This is very basic and it's possible to build and talk about this for hours but thats the basic Theoretical concept.


This approach will not make it sound like bebop and as mentioned before a lot of this "rules" will be broken and approach notes will be added and then talking about Dominants is also crucial to understand harmony but this works to play melodic over the changes.


I'm personally not a fan of teaching scales this way, I often start with chord tones, voice-leading and then build scales from that. The scale approach can make a lot of students just running scales up and down but the question was about scales so I tried to explain it this way.

Hope it helps a little bit.

 

[Pete Thomas]

For example if we're in the key of C-Major and we have the chord progression:

C-Am-Dm-G Em-Am-Dm-G.

C will be C-Major scale (Ionian)
The A minor is the VI-chord and the "theoretical correct" scale will be the Natural minor (Aeolian) which is the same as the C-Major scale from A.
The D minor is the II chord and the scale will be the D-Dorian (I guess that's the one you call minor 7 scale), same as C-Major from the D.
The E minor is the III-chord and the scale will be E-Phrygian, same as C-Major from E.
G will be G-Mixolydian, same as C-Major scale from G.

And of course the elephant in this roo,m is that we can forget all about modes in this context, because there is only one scale we need to know (for the basic notes to use when improvising)

Why anyone (such as Aebersold) wants to complicate things with mediaeval church modes is beyond me.

 

[JL]

For years I've been hearing that "minor seventh chords are used in jazz more than minor chords."

To that I say, "Well, doesn't that depend on the chord being improvised on?"

In other words, if the chord does not call for a flat seventh, why should I put one in? On the other hand, if the arrangement itself specifically substitutes a m7 for a minor chord (compared to the original version of the song), by all means, I think the flat 7th is obviously called for.

Am I missing something? Is it recommended not to practice the natural minor scales, but only the minor seventh scales

Erik, I think you are making a couple of erroneous assumptions here that will only cause you confusion.

First of all, as limpan mentioned, a min7 chord is not a substitute for a min chord. It is simply a minor triad with the seventh added. If the chord root is C, then they are both a type of C min chord. Jazz players use a lot of variations (colors) on minor chords: min6, min7, min7b5, min-maj7 (a minor chord with maj 7th). What makes a chord minor is the b3. Simple as that.

Second, be careful not to mix up chords and scales. Although related, they are two separate things. So you can't call a Cmin7 chord a scale. Chords can be derived from a scale, but that doesn't make them the same thing; the fact is you can derive seven different chords from a major scale, just sticking to the diatonic notes as the roots of each chord. None of those chords are a "C major scale", 2 of them are major chords (Cmaj7 & Fmaj7), 3 are minor chords (Dmin7, Emin7, Amin7), 1 is half diminished (Bmin7b5), and 1 is a dominant chord (G7). It's very useful to know all of that and see how they are related to the key center (in this case C), but they are chords, not scales. You want to be aware of specific chord tones in each chord, especially focusing on 3rds and 7ths, which tend to define the chord quality.

The scale (C major) can be used to 'fill in' notes between chord tones, as a basic concept (as I think Pete is implying above--correct me if I got the wrong, Pete!).

 

[ErikJon]

Thank you, JL. You are right. In fact, I am a bit careless with my explanations and choice of words, and to make matters worse, since I stopped playing for about 13 years, I forgot most of the correct terminology that I knew, limited though it was. I understand all of what you are saying and, as usual, I got more than I bargained for in my original question, as the answers were very complete.

Thanks again to all of you.

 

[Brenton]

...A similar point is regarding diminished chords.
My instruction books seem to suggest that there is no significant difference between diminished chords and diminished seventh chords. Aebersold calls them "diminished chords," for example, but he also says, "they fit dim7" chords. He says that there are only three scales to learn.
So, then, when I see a chord change called "Edim," am I just supposed to play something from the Edim7 scale?
Is it recommended not to practice the Edim scale at all, but only the Edim7 scale, for example?

I certainly recommend learning all three diminished chords. ie. C Eb Gb A; Db E G Bb; and D F Ab B.
Good. That took less than a quarter of an hour, right? As for improvising extra notes in between, how about just using the chromatic scale? Good. That didn't take any extra practice! Cheers...

 

[ErikJon]

Yes, Brenton. I have already learned those three scales and arpeggios.

I was just thrown a curve when I noticed that some books of scales called them one thing, and others called them another, so it seemed that there were two unique scales involved, and that I had been neglecting one of them for years.