[ErikJon]

Hello friends.

Yes, I understand that the blues scale does not fit every song, but in the cases where it does, I cannot remember what the general rule of thumb was for determining which blues scale to use.

I thought I had read in Aebersold's instruction books sometime ago, that the general rule of thumb for determining which blues scale worked best for any given song, even in a major key, was to use the minor blues scale with the same root. For example, for a song in E major I would use the Em blues scale where appropriate, rather than any other blues scale.

This week I was practicing "Embraceable You" in E, but it seemed that the C#m blues scale was the correct choice for such occasions, and that Em blues sounded lousy throughout.

Of course, I don't mean to suggest using the blues scale throughout the whole song, either, but only where appropriate. The point that I am asking is this: what is the rule of thumb, and how did I misunderstand it? Is there one rule for songs in a major key, and another rule for songs in a minor key? (If minor, I would assume the rule mentioned above, but for major it does not seem to work)

Thanks, my friends.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I thought I had read in Aebersold's instruction books sometime ago, that the general rule of thumb for determining which blues scale worked best for any given song, even in a major key, was to use the minor blues scale with the same root. For example, for a song in E major I would use the Em blues scale where appropriate, rather than any other blues scale.

This week I was practicing "Embraceable You" in E, but it seemed that the C#m blues scale was the correct choice for such occasions, and that Em blues sounded lousy throughout.

Indeed E minor blues scale is likely to sound lousy.

C#m blues scale but based around E is the same notes as an E major blues scale, probably best to think of it like that. And again unlikely to work well on a tune like that except in very expertly judged short fragments. (But probably a bit more useful than E m blues).

It's afar better approach to forget Aebersold and scale/chord formulae. Just learn the chords, and choose othe notes (passing notes or suspensions) from the underlying key centres.

Em blues would work for blues tunes, and some jump/blues style tunes, but on Embraceable you? No. As in the other thread, it 's not impossible for it to be done effectlvely, (mostly in small melodic fragments maybe) but never as a "formula" for beginners.

If you can find a version where a blues scale is used, then you can transcribe, analyse and learn. Otherwise I'd stick clear of trying to use a blues scale as a "catch all" impro scale unless it is a blues.

 

[HeavyWeather77]

I agree very much with Pete. I think that a lot of the Aebersold-style improvisation ideas (most of which are ultimately rooted in Jerry Coker's and David Baker's methods) can be fun to read and think about. But they tend to skip the most important, in my opinion, fundamental element of musical improvisation, and that's "audiation," or your mind's ear, or however you want to think about it. Take your time, play the melody, root progression, and chords a thousand times, and develop an intuitive relationship with all the intervals involved. Eventually you won't have to think about what you're doing when you're improvising at all, you can just "sing" over the chords.

 

[turf3]

Well first of all Embrzable Ewe is an extremely diatonic tune and I can't imagine how slathering a blues scale all over it could sound other than lousy (but someone will probably link to a recording that proves me wrong).

Secondly, yes, there is a formula:

Play something. If it sounds good, it was right. If it doesn't, don't do that any more.

 

[turf3]

Personally I think the quality of improvisation in almost all genres would take a distinct step up if the "blues scale" could disappear into oblivion. Yeah, there's a place for bluesy licks, but most people get hold of it and it's like putting ketchup on everything on the plate - the steak, the potatoes, the asparagus, the bread, the apple pie, the 20 year old scotch gets a dollop of ketchup too, and pour some into your coffee to finish off. No, man, just put the ketchup on your hamburger!

 

[lydian]

Sonny Stitt managed to make it all the way through Embraceable You without a single blues lick, in his usual masterful, tasteful way. Notice how he used a ton of diminished licks over dominant 7th chords which sound amazing yet don't fit your chord/scale theory at all but are chock full of extensions and altered notes like flat/sharp 9, sharp 11, 13, etc.

 

[ErikJon]

Thank you for all the comments and advice.

I did not mean to suggest that the whole song was appropriate for a sizeable blues solo, but as you say, in the worst case, only in brief fragments (such as the measures where C#m7 appears for alto), and even then--according to my thinking--only as a last-resort for adding a little variety to the solo, such as maybe briefly on one of the final choruses, for example. I understand that this song is not inherently good for the blues scale.

Anyway, I guess the rule of thumb is that I can use the blues scale of the RELATIVE MINOR key for any given song, and, again, only for songs or portions thereof where the sound, itself, is appropriate.

And, of course, if the song is in a minor key, and the scale is appropriate, I would use the one that corresponds to that minor key. (e.g. Em blues scale for a song in Em)

I guess I had just remembered incorectly what Aebersold had mentioned on that point.

Thanks for the hilarious analogy of the ketchup, Turf. Point well taken

And MDaveJ, thanks for the nice Youtube example. Stitt sounds a bit like Charlie Parker on that particular recording, with all the passages of 16th-note runs.

I will try substituting diminished chords, myself, over dominant sevenths.

Thanks, everyone.

 

[lydian]

Anyway, I guess the rule of thumb is that I can use the blues scale of the RELATIVE MINOR key for any given song, and, again, only for songs or portions thereof where the sound, itself, is appropriate.

I have to disagree. On a standard I-IV-I-I blues progression, the blues scale to use is the I, not the relative minor. Look at what happens if I use A blues in the key of C. The notes are A C D Eb E G. The only remotely bluesy sounding note in there is the Eb, the minor 3rd (or sharp 9th) of C. The F# from the C blues scale sounds a LOT more bluesy. But it's not there in the relative minor. And you don't want to restrict the blues to just minor chords. What makes a blues a blues is that unexpected minor 3rd and flat 5th against a major tonality. The journey from that minor 3rd back up to the major 3rd is one of the things that makes the blues the blues.

I think it's a mistake to pick a scale that just happens to have a collection of safe notes. That completely misses the structure, the gravity, the voice leading, the flow of the harmony. Playing that Am-whatever over C results in a rather vanilla, boring pentatonic sound.

Lastly, don't think in terms of the key of the song. That's mostly irrelevant. It gets trumped by the chord progression. Think key centers that follow the changes.

 

[ErikJon]

Oh, I get it. That's what Pete meant by "key centres;" the song might start and end in any way, but hover mainly around some other unrelated key. Got it.

So, then, I'm not completely as wrong as I had thought, about the formula not working as it was supposed to; I had kept looking for a formula, only to find myself gravitating unknowingly toward a key center that did not follow the formula, but was reflected in the chord progression.

I feel safer now. Thanks so much for that tip, to help summarize and put things into better perspective.

 

[Morph1590]

Great posts above. I'd definitely agree with both Pete and Heavy Weather...

It's not easy to summarise all the different approaches to playing on Embraceable You, but you can get a long way:


1) Playing chord tones and embellishing with enclosures (e.g. playing a half step above or below chord tones, or a whole step etc.)
2) Improvising off the melody

 

[Pete Thomas]

Anyway, I guess the rule of thumb is that I can use the blues scale of the RELATIVE MINOR key for any given song, and, again, only for songs or portions thereof where the sound, itself, is appropriate.

That's a bit of an odd way of thinking. I think you mean the minor blues scale of the relative minor, but it is much more logical if the tune (or rather key ventre) is major, then just think of the major blues scale. That is if you want to think of a blue scale at all. There are certain standards or jazz standards where this can work, e.g. I Got Rhythm, Flying Home, Take a The Train. But not really Embracaeble You.

 

[lesacks]

Just for, possibly, interesting listening, Jay Metcalf has a short play list of effective use of the blues scale...

www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWMjC05R8fbUqqM9NeWhzu3j308Xt-Uui

 

[Grumps]

It's the blues. Use your ears. The worst thing you can do to the blues is overwork it with theory and lose its essence.

 

[turf3]

It's the blues. Use your ears. The worst thing you can do to the blues is overwork it with theory and lose its essence.

Yes, I agree, but he's not even talking about a blues tune, he's talking about Embraceable Ewe. So I'd step aside from the blues scale altogether for that tune and improvise more diatonically.

 

[Grumps]

My bad. Don't play a blues scale over Embraceable You. And yeah... use your ears.

 

[bvandrasik]

I think Jamey Aebersold would NEVER advocate using only a blues scale to improvise over any song. He is all about learning the chords and scales. I was at a workshop just this winter when he called out a student for playing some b5's that weren't in the chord.

 

[lostcircuits]

When in doubt, ask your friendly neighborhood mediocre guitar player to find the matching blues scale or even better, talk to those guys:

 

[Grumps]

I for one look forward to the post-aebersoldization of Jazz...

 

[turf3]

I think Jamey Aebersold and his materials have served a function, but you have to keep it in context.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I think Jamey Aebersold would NEVER advocate using only a blues scale to improvise over any song. He is all about learning the chords and scales. I was at a workshop just this winter when he called out a student for playing some b5's that weren't in the chord.

Nooooo! b5's that weren't in the chord! How terrible.

Luckily Charlie Parker wasn't there