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Discussion Starter #1
I heard a Dave Liebman Masterclass on another thread that was pretty interesting.

One of the points he made was that rhythm is where the action is today in Jazz in terms of developing the music. This came about through the influence of World Music that has become popular in recent years with it's foreign rhythms 7/4, 11/4 etc. All his students compose in these time signatures now, no-one does 4/4 any more. This is killing jazz which traditionally is 4/4 (& 3/4) from European classical music. 4/4 is where you swing (Bob Mover said a similar thing in another thread).

I also found it interesting his mentioning of how every instrument had it's day. Trumpet with Louis Armstrong. Sax had a great run from Prez through to Trane. Bass had it's day from LaFarro through to Pastorius. Piano also had it's day. Now is the age of rhythm. But it sounds to me that people like Liebman and Mover have reservations about it, moving away from 4/4 and swing.
 

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I'm confused, Lieb says that odd time signatures are killing jazz, or you do? It sounds like Lieb is saying that. Very interesting. He's very opinionated but a very smart guy and a good musical thinker. I don't agree with him on this point at all, but I'm sure his reasoning is sound.

As far as I'm concerned, though, "swing" clearly means different things to different people. To some people-- less experienced people with a narrow understanding of music, from what I've seen-- it's the "ching-chinga-ching-chinga-ching" of the ride cymbal translated to an entire ensemble and each instrument therein. That's what a lot of less-than-awesome band director would say, I think.

More-than-awesome band directors would, in my estimation, consider "swing" to be term that denotes great feeling music that evokes dance, and could be interchangeable with "groove." And I don't think that 4/4 time is necessary for something to groove. Check out Avishai Cohen or the Dave Holland Quintet! If you don't think that time feels good, you should have your pulse checked.
 

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HeavyWeather77 said:
I'm confused, Lieb says that odd time signatures are killing jazz, or you do? It sounds like Lieb is saying that...
It was Liebman who said that, but it was interesting that Bob Mover said a similar thing as well, how students are ignoring 4/4 to the detriment of their swing.
 

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It's interesting to me that if Lieb said it was a detriment to jazz ("killing Jazz"), and also said regarding 11/4 and 7/4 that, "All his students are composing in those signatures now," than he is contradicting himself. If they are his students, why is he teaching them what he feels is "Killing Jazz." Something doesn't seem right with the premise ... is something perhaps misunderstood? I can't agree with the statement personally.
 

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"Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself. I am large, I contain multitudes."

Walt Whitman Song of Myself
 

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I don't think Lieb said it was killing jazz. He says we're in the age of the drummer and rhythm is king, odd time signatures are what students want to explore. Yes, he seemed disappointed that it wasn't 4/4 and 3/4, but I don't think he said it was killing jazz.

FWIW, I find Lieb to be very entertaining, opinionated, and well-informed.
 

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When Louis Armstrong first hit the scene, critics were saying that he was killing Jazz because he was emphasising the soloist aspect in improvisation instead of the collective one in Dixieland.

Swing has evolved throughout Jazz history. I think one can swing in 11/4.
 

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Ken said:
It was Liebman who said that, but it was interesting that Bob Mover said a similar thing as well, how students are ignoring 4/4 to the detriment of their swing.
I'm really surprised he said that because Liebman does a lot of stuff in odd-meters (he was just here in San Diego last week). Furthermore, the guys recording in odd-meters all paid their dues in 4/4 (and still do).
 

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It's easier for guys to "skate" when they play odd time signatures. Maybe I'm "Old Hat", but I need to hear a player do a straight-ahead blues before can see how well they know their stuff.
 

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IMHO, Ken, the title is very misleading although your actual post after the thread title and subtitle makes perfect sense. I heard the masterclass too if it was the one from Aussie radio posted by (I think) Plant (??) and he said that there were various "ages" of jazz, one of which was dominated by the sax. He did say that drums and percussion are the driving force now or something like that. He never said that rhythm is killing jazz or anything like it I don't think.
 

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hakukani said:
"Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself. I am large, I contain multitudes."

Walt Whitman Song of Myself
Big boss man: you ain't so big, you just tall, that's all.
 

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pompous

I always find there's something pretentious, and a little pompous, about tunes in odd meters.

Can't you just lay it down, you P***sy.
 

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Take 5 was a hit,
It sold Millions of copys and proved that the common listener could dig and understand advanced meters in Jazz.
Who to say it's odd, maybe 4/4 is odd to some primitive cultures.
 

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tenorocity said:
I always find there's something pretentious, and a little pompous, about tunes in odd meters.

Can't you just lay it down, you P***sy.
Say that to David Binney...don't know many guys that lay it down more than he does.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
RootyTootoot said:
IMHO, Ken, the title is very misleading although your actual post after the thread title and subtitle makes perfect sense. I heard the masterclass too if it was the one from Aussie radio posted by (I think) Plant (??) and he said that there were various "ages" of jazz, one of which was dominated by the sax. He did say that drums and percussion are the driving force now or something like that. He never said that rhythm is killing jazz or anything like it I don't think.
You're right. I went back to check and he didn't say that. I must have got mixed up with Bob Mover's article where he definately was negative about young musicians playing only odd time signatures.

Here's some things he did say, not necessarily in a negative sense: "Harmony has almost been completely forgotten and melody is actually going the way of that...There was nowhere else to go with harmony...The music is drum music now. That's why you better play drums if you want to get anywhere. You should understand drums. You should understand what it is to be a drummer because it's really about drums".
 

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So can someone post a link to this then?
 

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tenorocity said:
I always find there's something pretentious, and a little pompous, about tunes in odd meters.

Can't you just lay it down, you P***sy.
Tunes in odd meters - 1. Pink Floyds ..' Money '
2. Take Five

I think it's very clever to write a good groove/melody in an odd meter.
 

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Take Five was not the only odd-metered song on "Time Out".
 
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