[Bart56]

Hi,
I'm an old clarinet player that played both clarinet and alto in a band way back some 40 years ago. Can't tell you if I as any good then, but I just picked p a Selmer Bundy Alto and have been practicing every day. I've found and corrected several leaks and my playing has improved but having more trouble that expected. I've been battling low notes which won't start unless I tongue them. I was using a Goldentone 3 mpc with a 2.5 Rico reed. I found one reed in the 3-pack that worked well, 1 that wouldn't lay flat on the table and one just so-so in that pack.

I decided to upgrade to a Yamaha 4C mpc. Slight improvement in response. I switched to VanDoren 2.5 sampler pack. Red Jazz works best so far.

My problem is that although the horn is now leak free (I check every couple of days to be sure I'm not somehow mishandling it to cause more leaks.) I still have trouble with anything below low D. If I play the scale down they usually sound ( but sometimes no sound - just air), but if I try to start there, I need to tongue it loudly to get the note to start. I don't know how to determine if the horn is giving me trouble or if I'm the culprit. I've read here that it's all in the embouchure, but the horn sings so sweet in the upper ranges with or without the octave key until I get to the closed notes below D.

I was thinking if there was another Alto horn to try, it might tell me that my horn still has issues. Conversely if I knew another Alto player, (and Covid virus wasn't an issue) that person could tell me my horn was ok or not. The closest music store is a guitar center and not sure they could help.

Any ideas of how to determine if it's me or the horn? All suggestions appreciated especially from those who solved the same dilemma.

Thanks in advance

 

[motteatoj]

I find lower alto notes to be a bit harder than lower tenor notes to get if your chops are not up to par.
Long tones, long tones, long tones....and plenty of warm up.

You will get there.

 

[mijderf]

Hi,
I'm an old clarinet player that played both clarinet and alto in a band way back some 40 years ago. Can't tell you if I as any good then, but I just picked p a Selmer Bundy Alto and have been practicing every day. I've found and corrected several leaks and my playing has improved but having more trouble that expected. I've been battling low notes which won't start unless I tongue them.

Here are a few things to try:
1. Make sure that there is no leak at the neck tenon. In particular, this seems to affect the lowest notes the most. And just because a neck neck doesn't move does not mean that it does not leak.
2. Try playing a number 2 reed and see if that helps.
3. Try taking in a little more mouthpiece into your mouth. If you played mostly clarinet, you may be a bit close to the tip with your embouchure. The low notes need to have a longer length of reed vibrating, so make sure your embouchure location isn't dampening the reed vibration.

 

[saxoclese]

Sometimes players coming from clarinet to saxophone tend to 1) play too high on the mouthpiece pitch (should be no higher than A=880) and 2) restrict the air in the throat to try to recreate the increased "resistance" they are used to when playing the clarinet. When you write "the horn sings so sweet in the upper ranges with or without the octave key. It gives a hint that the embouchure may be too tight or you are "biting".

An exercise to open the throat is to say "Haup" when you take a breath, or make the throat feel like the first part of a yawn before the swallow reflex kicks in. Blowing warm air can also help. An exercise I used with my students is to quickly slur from G down to low C with a full tone, and hold the low C as a long tone as long as you can on one breath. When low C becomes comfortable, repeat the exercise down to low B, and then low Bb.

I assume you have a leak light since you said you are checking for leaks every couple of days. You might want to try that in a pitch dark room. It is easy to miss small leaks in a well lit room even with a good leak light. A way to check the neck tenon is to place the neck in the receiver and tighten the screw till it barely starts to meet resistance and see if the neck wobbles up and down when you raise and lower the cork end.

 

[lydian]

Low notes are hard on sax, especially alto. Since you're apparently leak free, it's just a matter of practice. As others have said, softer reeds can help until you get the knack. I've also found a more open mouthpiece is easier to play low, especially subtone. To start, bite a little harder and blow harder. The sound will be blaring and harsh, but at least you'll get the notes to speak. Then you can back off gradually and work on the tone over the course of several weeks.

Sax players use slight embouchure and jaw changes for nearly every note, dropping the jaw more the lower you go, much more than you would do on clarinet. Keep at it, and you'll eventually get it.

 

[Reet McVouty]

I'm wondering how much expertise you have in saxophone mechanics to assume you've corrected all of the leaks. Having a qualified tech look at it would definitely put that to rest. The other thing is you really need to start with your embouchure. It's the one fundamental that really needs to be spot on as it's your main connection to the instrument. Here is a really good tutorial for you from Harvey Pittel. Branford Marsalis is among his students.

 

[saxoclese]

Sax players use slight embouchure and jaw changes for nearly every note, dropping the jaw more the lower you go, much more than you would do on clarinet. Keep at it, and you'll eventually get it.

Jazz players may do this as they go into a subtone for the lowest notes. In my training and experience playing classical saxophone the embouchure remains the same as the notes go lower. The only changes in that style of playing involve just the air volume and direction and the shape inside the oral cavity. Some teachers advocate taking slightly more or less mouthpiece in the mouth as registers change, but the embouchure itself does not tighten or loosen.

 

[lydian]

Jazz players may do this as they go into a subtone for the lowest notes. In my training and experience playing classical saxophone the embouchure remains the same as the notes go lower. The only changes in that style of playing involve just the air volume and direction and the shape inside the oral cavity. Some teachers advocate taking slightly more or less mouthpiece in the mouth as registers change, but the embouchure itself does not tighten or loosen.

I know nothing about classical, but jazz players, including me, adjust A LOT through the whole range of the horn, not just for subtone. I wouldn't say it's tighten or loosen either, but lots of changes. Check out Steve Marcus around the 30 second mark. Pretty typical of a jazz sax player. Also click on the B/W Bob Mintzer video that shows up at the end for another good look at how the jaw needs to pull in and drop the lower you go. If you don't do this, then, you'll sound like a classical player. Not that there's anything wrong with that, just a different sound and approach.

In any case, just posting what works for me to get the OP over the hump. Once he gets a consistent response, he can tweak his technique for whatever sound he wants. It's kind of tough for beginners when they get one piece of advice in one post and the exact opposite advice in the next. I guess the zero change approach might work eventually for guys like Marcel Mule, but you've got to start somewhere.

 

[Dave Pollack]

I know nothing about classical, but jazz players, including me, adjust A LOT through the whole range of the horn, not just for subtone.

100% agree - I change my embouchure for almost EVERY single note I play.

 

[Bart56]

Great video - it shows a lot of movement in his embouchure. One thing I notice from all the greats out there is that the sax seems to be an extension of their body and they simply sing from their soul using the sax and their body. Love it!
Thanks.

 

[saxoclese]

100% agree - I change my embouchure for almost EVERY single note I play.

Listening and "lipping" each note to match pitch I think is something all advanced players do. It's called playing in tune. In my understanding that is not the same as "tightening as you go higher and loosening as you go lower" which is a common misconception among self-taught beginning players. In classical playing it is commonly taught that the same "embouchure" is used from low Bb to high F. What does change is the direction and speed of the air and the shape of the oral cavity. For me the same embouchure doesn't quite work on soprano when playing the palm key notes which require a bit more "effort". Jazz style uses a wide range of "inflections" that require moving the jaw and chin to achieve those effects.

 

[Bart56]

Hey all,
Just to let you know I've made several replies but they await the approval of the moderator. Now I just posted one that showed up right away and I don't know where all my other replies went.

Basically I want to say thanks for all the support you're giving. It's all helping me to understand that if my sax is tight, then it's me. I saw a Jay Metcalf video where he said he was asked to tune up a horn from this fabulous player and he found all these leaks, but the guy played it flawlessly. So I guess it's up to me to practice my long tones, moving to a #2 reed and see where my embouchure takes me.

Thank you all for your generous advice.

Bart

 

[Bart56]

Hi Reet.
I understand your skepticism as this is such a specific repair field. Let me just acknowledge that but reassure you that I've been fixing things of all kinds for more than half a century and it is a rare event that I can't diagnose and fix whatever comes my way. I am a former world wide support engineer that grew up when computers were made of large rooms of cabinets, pumps, levers, springs, punches, buttons, and whatever else it took to compute back in the day.

The sax does not appear to be any more difficult than my clarinet but certainly different from electronics or mechanical assemblies. I appreciate your caution. I have a very bright leak light (my second generation build from very bright LEDs), plus many of the tools needed to carry out maintenance. I have to admit that I don't have any shellac yet if I have to replace a pad.
Your embouchure advice is consistent with most comments and training materials and I promise to work on that. I hope it will prove that my sax is not the issue. After viewing one of Jay Metcalf's Better Sax videos, his mention of how well a friend of his played a very leaky sax, I am more convinced it is mostly the player - me, in this case.

So, thanks for the response. Well appreciated.

 

[JayeLID]

Hi,
My problem is that although the horn is now leak free (I check every couple of days to be sure I'm not somehow mishandling it to cause more leaks.) I still have trouble with anything below low D.

Being a repairer/restorer, I would posit that although you have found and corrected some leaks - your horn is still NOT leak-free.

It just sounds that way. You have switched reeds, you have switched mouthpiece setups.

Understand that the only way to determine leaks is to use a leak light in an almost pitch black room (a closet, for instance) and then you apply minimal finger pressure to the keytouch (a tech friend of mine says, regarding stack keys - "use the back of your pinky and contact the keytouch with your fingernail to close"). My guess is, if you do both of these things, you will find leaks someplace.

Give it a try....

Let me just acknowledge that but reassure you that I've been fixing things of all kinds for more than half a century and it is a rare event that I can't diagnose and fix whatever comes my way. I am a former world wide support engineer that grew up when computers were made of large rooms of cabinets, pumps, levers, springs, punches, buttons, and whatever else it took to compute back in the day.

All of that is laudable, but I am with Reet on this one.

Once a person had repaired/padded/regulated around 12 saxes, THEN they start to 'get the hang' of it.

One is rarely, if ever, successful on their first, second, third, or eighth try.

Being mechanically inclined helps, certainly, and 'how-to" videos are ...nice....but woodwind repair is a specialty for a reason.

Without having had an experienced repairer look at the horn you seem to already have concluded 'it's me' (and sadly, a number of respondents here have gone down that road as well). There's an important piece of this puzzle missing, and only one way to find that piece.

You may just be fiddling with embouchure to get a leaky horn to speak, now...which is counterproductive to good technique, at the end of the day.

Best of luck.

 

[Bart56]

Thanks for kind advice You are correct in that I'm far from an expert, but with Covid-19 around, finding a repairer to check it out is proving difficult. Also the fact that I have a relatively inexpensive horn (Selmer Bundy) I'd prefer to check it out as thoroughly as possible and play it while I tweak it. I have no doubt that after seeing some of the expert repair videos, I'm just a noob at fixing horns. But your advice is well received.
I am improving though so thanks. I will keep that in mind when I can find a local repairer.

Bart

 

[Bart56]

I find lower alto notes to be a bit harder than lower tenor notes to get if your chops are not up to par.
Long tones, long tones, long tones....and plenty of warm up.

You will get there.

Thanks John. That's actually very encouraging to know about altos.

I don't remember my old alto having so much trouble but I could have forgotten that bit. I have been practicing long multi-note phrases going from E down to B flat and up. Also starting anywhere in between and going up and down staying in the same low range, sometimes venturing to G and back down. By long tones, I mean playing whole notes 60 bpm and longer before moving. I find starting D with just the breath reasonably easy, but starting B or C are noisy and needing a lot of air just to start it. B flat seems to start easier than b or C. This kinda ruins my hopes of playing softly. Octave up notes are better but the B and C are still problematic.

Tks!

P.S. I grew up in Yonkers. Orza bakery = best breads!

 

[JL]

I saw a Jay Metcalf video where he said he was asked to tune up a horn from this fabulous player and he found all these leaks, but the guy played it flawlessly.

It's true that an experienced player can play through leaks (as long as they aren't gaping gaps), especially as the leaks develop gradually and the player continually adjusts over a time span. But they will be working harder than necessary and at some point finally realize that, which is probably why that guy brought his horn in to Jay for a 'tune up.' I'm not a great player by any means, but one time, some years back, when I took my horn in to my tech it was so full of leaks he said he couldn't believe I could even play it.

Bottom line, it's almost a certainty your horn is leaking. Maybe not so much that you can find some of the leaks (they can sometimes be difficult to find, let alone fix). Normally, I'd say take the horn in to a reputable tech immediately so you can get it fixed and rule out the horn as a problem. But I realize that may be difficult with this virus out there. But do it as soon as possible. It's difficult enough for a beginner (or in your case coming back after a 40 year layoff--what took you so long? ) to work out embouchure issues on a horn in top playing condition, let alone one full of leaks (or even a small leak).

Meanwhile, definitely follow the advice given here on using a loose embouchure, etc. #2 reed is a good idea also.