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· Distinguished Member, Forum Contributor 2008-2017
Series II with Sterling Silver Series III neck. A55 or A45 Jumbo Java. Java Green or Red, 3 or 2.5.
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
About many of the players I admire I cannot tell about an altoist that I see using a different neck on its horn than the original one. Maybe its just me so it will be fun to find out. On the other hand, about tenor players, starting by Brecker, Joe Lovano, etc., and around my colleagues when we see a neck change, it usually is a tenor.

Am I correct? If so, any reason you find for that?

Regards,

JI
 

· Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2015-
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You’re probably correct. It is widely known that tenor players go through a lot more mouthpieces, too.

It is because they care more about their tone? Or is there something about the instrument that draws it to people that tend to be more obsessive?

Or are there more effects from altering the tenor neck because it is longer???



Tenor - It’s all that matters. :twisted: :bluewink:
 

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I would easily say it is because of the extra bend in the neck that there is more to mess up. I would also think that pull down becomes more of an issue as well.. even still... they are so different I think they have to be looked at for what they are not comparatively in this regard.
 

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It is because they care more about their tone?
It could be because they care less about their tone, so instead of practising tone or sound improvement exercise, they just obsess about, and keep switching, gear.
 

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I've actually had the opposite experience- gone through way more necks on alto than on tenor. I think it depends on the response and intonation of the horn, in addition to all the factors mentioned- tenors tend to be a little weaker on top, so players want to optimize it, while altos can quack in the low end. Since tenor players love their altissimo in recent decades, they've looked for ways of making it more effortless and in tune. As for my own needs, it's intonation first, followed by low end response.

Tenor players tend to modify their necks a lot more- changing the break angle (Jimmy Giuffre), adding pickups to it, bending them down and fixing them with extra bracing. I heard a story that Brecker's original neck was wrecked by a tech who was experimenting with some alteration in the bore.
 

· Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2015-
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I want a new neck, my discs are trashed.
Definitely a pull down.
Hmm, me too - degenerative discs between C5/C6, C6/C7, and C7/T1. >>> No more mountain biking.
 

· Distinguished Member, Forum Contributor 2008-2017
Series II with Sterling Silver Series III neck. A55 or A45 Jumbo Java. Java Green or Red, 3 or 2.5.
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I heard a story that Brecker's original neck was wrecked by a tech who was experimenting with some alteration in the bore.
And as I've read here at the Forum that is why he played with a Silver Plated Mark VI neck he got later on.
 

· Distinguished Member, Forum Contributor 2008-2017
Series II with Sterling Silver Series III neck. A55 or A45 Jumbo Java. Java Green or Red, 3 or 2.5.
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I want a new neck, my discs are trashed.
Definitely a pull down.
In Spanish an instrument neck is called "tudel", instead of "cuello", which is the actual translation of neck. Anyway I'm sorry to read that. Hope you get well soon.
 

· Distinguished Member, Forum Contributor 2008-2017
Series II with Sterling Silver Series III neck. A55 or A45 Jumbo Java. Java Green or Red, 3 or 2.5.
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Hmm, me too - degenerative discs between C5/C6, C6/C7, and C7/T1. >>> No more mountain biking.
Hey... any therapy help¡ing? Get well soon. I had a Sacro Disc issue after playing rugby....
 

· Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2015-
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Hey... any therapy help¡ing? Get well soon. I had a Sacro Disc issue after playing rugby....
Thanks, but this is more about learning to live with it - arthritis in the vertebrae as well. Right now my choice is to give up mountain biking so I can keep playing a few more years. Even a mild crash could pinch the nerves to my arms and hands. Got watch out for that.

I had back surgery years ago for a disc that was extruding its inner goodness down the nerve root to my right leg.

Getting old sucks, but it beats the alternative.

Stay healthy!
 

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I just talked to a guy who had a disc in his neck replaced with an artificial one 3 weeks ago.
He is doing well considering that his arms were getting numb and inoperable due to severe nerve pinch.
I'm not there yet.
All my sax necks are in good shape and work, the instruments sound fine.
Maybe a new neck would help but I will never know.
Messing with mpcs and reeds is enough.
 

· Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2016
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It could be because they care less about their tone, so instead of practising tone or sound improvement exercise, they just obsess about, and keep switching, gear.
Which would beg the question...did Coltrane, Dexter, Henderson, Shorter, Hawkins, Mobley, Byas, Griffin, Lockjaw, Zoot, et. al. get heavy into swapping necks, etc ? I don't recall hearing that...

Hmmmmm....................
 

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Which would beg the question...did Coltrane, Dexter, Henderson, Shorter, Hawkins, Mobley, Byas, Griffin, Lockjaw, Zoot, et. al. get heavy into swapping necks, etc ? I don't recall hearing that...

Hmmmmm....................
Back in the day I think most of those players were more likely to try new horns rather than fiddle around trying new necks. However, some of them were always trying and modifying mouthpieces.
 

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There is (was?) a clique of classical alto players that were changing necks. This was before Yamaha came out with their variety of necks—they were adding Selmer necks to their Yamaha altos. I believe this has been less so since Yamaha sells a small variety of necks.

P.s. does the bend in a tenor neck DO something? I just assumed it was cosmetic.

-Bubba-
 

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No, the neck was 'under the radar' back in the day - guys just played the neck that was on the sax they tried and liked. If something happened to the neck, they would get a factory replacement. Obviously, somebody somewhere was swapping necks to find better combinations but this didn't 'go viral' until a few years after SOTW started. :)
The tenor not only has the largest neck of the saxes, it also has the largest volume (water capacity) of the sax necks, plus it is the largest neck in relation to the rest of the sax. It also has the compound curve. These attributes mean there are many more variables in a tenor neck than sop, alt or bar, so there are very real differences in necks that look alike. Necks made at the same place to the same design can play differently. Selmer and probably other manufacturers knew this and it is known that Selmer USA did swap MK VI tenor necks around during final adjustment/play-testing to create better combos.

Being longer, there is more of a 'bending moment' associated with the main arch which is the part that flattens in a 'pull-down' than the other saxes. I have the original neck with my 186xxx MK VI tenor and I am not a player who pulls necks down - however, it turned out that the neck was damaged to some extent when I received it. I had been playing a Series III Sterling neck on it for years which is an excellent neck, but I never was really satisfied with the horn. I had what was supposed to be a premium overhaul on it but ended up working on it myself for a long time to get the tone/playability back. During that period, I sent the neck to Kim Bock of KB Sax in NYC to see if he thought it needed anything. While it didn't look bad, it turned out the major part of it was more oval than round, and the mouthpipe was too open. I got the neck back and tooted a few notes, but I wasn't finished with the sax yet and I didn't really see any difference. However, once I did fix all the crazy leaks and action problems, I took the neck to a shop about an hour away to have the tenon tightened up to the horn. The next time I played this horn I fell out! The more I played it, the better I liked it. Altissimo does take a little more effort than the silver neck but restoring that original neck is really making the horn pop. The more I get used to it, the better it is. Now I don't like the silver neck and brass III neck on the VI but they are still great on my USA tenor for which the original neck was so awful (it was in perfect physical and cosmetic condition, just a crummy neck) that unless I had found a Paris neck to play on it, I would not have been able to use it.
I've always like Sterling silver necks - my first tenor was a Super 20 with silver neck, made when I was about 5 years old. I got it when I was 16. I've always thought that was what started me on the silver necks. Anyway, I tried one on my baritone, and it really didn't make much difference - I liked the original brass neck better. I guess this is because the baritone neck is the smallest in relation to the size of the whole instrument (I don't know about the bass, contrabass, etc. - this is just about sop, alt, ten, bar) so the neck can make the least difference, all things being equal.

Sorry about the sermon but I have learned a few things about necks over the years and after all, you did ask. You were right, the tenor is the king of the neck swap, and the reasons are as I stated, plus the propensity for the tenor neck to be damaged.
 

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The shape of the tenor neck is required to place the mouthpiece at the correct height for ergonomics. The compound curve also takes up space so the neck is the right length, again for the ergos.
 

· Distinguished Member, Forum Contributor 2008-2017
Series II with Sterling Silver Series III neck. A55 or A45 Jumbo Java. Java Green or Red, 3 or 2.5.
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Very much appreciated, word by word.

No, the neck was 'under the radar' back in the day - guys just played the neck that was on the sax they tried and liked. If something happened to the neck, they would get a factory replacement. Obviously, somebody somewhere was swapping necks to find better combinations but this didn't 'go viral' until a few years after SOTW started. :)
The tenor not only has the largest neck of the saxes, it also has the largest volume (water capacity) of the sax necks, plus it is the largest neck in relation to the rest of the sax. It also has the compound curve. These attributes mean there are many more variables in a tenor neck than sop, alt or bar, so there are very real differences in necks that look alike. Necks made at the same place to the same design can play differently. Selmer and probably other manufacturers knew this and it is known that Selmer USA did swap MK VI tenor necks around during final adjustment/play-testing to create better combos.

Being longer, there is more of a 'bending moment' associated with the main arch which is the part that flattens in a 'pull-down' than the other saxes. I have the original neck with my 186xxx MK VI tenor and I am not a player who pulls necks down - however, it turned out that the neck was damaged to some extent when I received it. I had been playing a Series III Sterling neck on it for years which is an excellent neck, but I never was really satisfied with the horn. I had what was supposed to be a premium overhaul on it but ended up working on it myself for a long time to get the tone/playability back. During that period, I sent the neck to Kim Bock of KB Sax in NYC to see if he thought it needed anything. While it didn't look bad, it turned out the major part of it was more oval than round, and the mouthpipe was too open. I got the neck back and tooted a few notes, but I wasn't finished with the sax yet and I didn't really see any difference. However, once I did fix all the crazy leaks and action problems, I took the neck to a shop about an hour away to have the tenon tightened up to the horn. The next time I played this horn I fell out! The more I played it, the better I liked it. Altissimo does take a little more effort than the silver neck but restoring that original neck is really making the horn pop. The more I get used to it, the better it is. Now I don't like the silver neck and brass III neck on the VI but they are still great on my USA tenor for which the original neck was so awful (it was in perfect physical and cosmetic condition, just a crummy neck) that unless I had found a Paris neck to play on it, I would not have been able to use it.
I've always like Sterling silver necks - my first tenor was a Super 20 with silver neck, made when I was about 5 years old. I got it when I was 16. I've always thought that was what started me on the silver necks. Anyway, I tried one on my baritone, and it really didn't make much difference - I liked the original brass neck better. I guess this is because the baritone neck is the smallest in relation to the size of the whole instrument (I don't know about the bass, contrabass, etc. - this is just about sop, alt, ten, bar) so the neck can make the least difference, all things being equal.

Sorry about the sermon but I have learned a few things about necks over the years and after all, you did ask. You were right, the tenor is the king of the neck swap, and the reasons are as I stated, plus the propensity for the tenor neck to be damaged.
 

· Distinguished Member, Forum Contributor 2008-2017
Series II with Sterling Silver Series III neck. A55 or A45 Jumbo Java. Java Green or Red, 3 or 2.5.
Joined
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2,313 Posts
Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Yeap, it's true. I have seen that.

There is (was?) a clique of classical alto players that were changing necks. This was before Yamaha came out with their variety of necks-they were adding Selmer necks to their Yamaha altos. I believe this has been less so since Yamaha sells a small variety of necks.

P.s. does the bend in a tenor neck DO something? I just assumed it was cosmetic.

-Bubba-
 
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