[cosmosis]

I've had my sax for several years, never any issues and took it in for a tune up. I got it back today and they replaced a couple pads, and they also bent some keys that they must have considered not straight. It's Sunday, so I can talk to the repair people until tomorrow, but is this normal?
I had zero issues and never bent anything that I know of requiring keys to be bent back. I guess it was annoying because if they were going to bend anything on my sax I kind of would have liked a phone call first. Am I being paranoid here? I just know you can bend a piece of metal a finite number of times before it breaks. Thanks

 

[NissanVintageSax]

Sometimes keys were never aligned right in the first place,and must be bent back where they should have been. Sometimes they get knocked out (either in the case or out of it) unknowingly, and need to be bent back where they should be. If your sax is sealing and playing better now, than it did before taking it in, don't worry about it, you're being paranoid. If it's playing or sounding worse, by all means, question the work done.

 

[KEN K]

Repair tecks bend keys every day on instruments. They bend them back to where they are suppose to be.

I know, everybody thinks they never bend the keys on their horns. Believe me they do .

Brass is a soft metal and will bend. Some horns keys are so soft I bend them back with just my hands.

It is correct that keys are not lined up right from the factory and they have to be moved to the right position.

 

[Stephen Howard]

It's really nothing to be concerned about.
There are a number of reasons why keys may require bending - and if you like you can think of it more in terms of 'realignment'.
Sometimes it's because keys have been bent though damage or use, but more often than not it's because they were never correctly aligned in the first place.
In most cases it relates to the key cups, and how the pads are seated.

If it's any consolation I remember my first day at instrument repair college all those decades ago, and how horrified I was to see the lecturer bend a key on a sax.
It may also help to have a look at this article:

http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk/HandyHints/LeakyPads.htm

It explains a little about key cup angles, and why they're so important.

I should add that your horn ought to be playing better now - though it's possible that some adjustments were made with a view to long-term reliability rather than any noticeable improvement.

Regards,

 

[Chris Peryagh]

Most venting, regulation and lining things up involves keywork bending to some degree or other on any woodwind instrment. Some repair courses don't tend to teach this in great detail (and some not at all so it seems), but it's all part and parcel of woodwind repair and is best left to those that know what they're doing. I don't think I've worked on any woodwind instrument where I didn't have to bend anything.

Some people believe you have to heat the metal up a bit first in order to soften it enough to be able to bend it, but that's a myth. The metal has already been softened by hard soldering when the instrument was being made or the key pieces were cast and if you did have to heat anything up, you'd have to get it glowing red hot which will only damage the plating.

Only serious bends will compromise keywork - just as an example, if the end stopper isn't used, a seriously bent 8ve shift lever is usually the result and it may be able to be bent back a couple of times at the most before the metal work hardens and becomes brittle. Then any more bending through not using the end stopper or bending it back to the original position as a result will make it fracture which will mean it'll have to be hard soldered back on which also softens the metal so any adjusting by bending can be carried out so long as it's carefully done.

 

[hornfixer]

We only straighten keys in my shop.

 

[cosmosis]

cool, thanks for the replies. I feel ok now. The sax does seem to l play a little better,
Thanks

 

[saxomophone]

We only straighten keys in my shop.

That's the kind of tech I like. I've seen where guys have bent keys to fit because the pad wasn't leveled correctly. Now the horn has a bent key cup. Besides, doesn't bending metal weaken it and make it more likely to be bent out of shape again?

I once took my early 10M to a shop to get some work done. When I play tested it, I noticed the G# key wasn't closing on the low notes. The tech took it back and bent the arm with some pliers rather than replacing the cork and handed it back to me. I'll never go back to that shop again.

 

[maddenma]

We only straighten keys in my shop.

Muahahaha.... This is actually the answer. Why some people insist on calling it "bending keys" is beyond me. Just call it straightening and it all makes sense.

 

[KEN K]

straightening keys = bending keys - same thing

 

[Stephen Howard]

That's the kind of tech I like. I've seen where guys have bent keys to fit because the pad wasn't leveled correctly. Now the horn has a bent key cup. Besides, doesn't bending metal weaken it and make it more likely to be bent out of shape again?

Bending metal strengthens it, through a process known as work-hardening. The flip-side is that it ends up making the metal brittle eventually.
You can see what's happening yourself by bending a paperclip. It'll bend easily for the first few times, then get stiffer and stiffer until it breaks.

I once took my early 10M to a shop to get some work done. When I play tested it, I noticed the G# key wasn't closing on the low notes. The tech took it back and bent the arm with some pliers rather than replacing the cork and handed it back to me. I'll never go back to that shop again.

Your repairer most likely did exactly the right thing. Certain key joints require a minimum of buffering to work at their best - and sliding joints especially so.
The G# link is such a joint - where the touchpiece key lever arm comes down over the G# key cup lever arm. You want as little buffering as possible here - just enough to make the mechanism quiet and not so much as to run the risk of compression and binding at a later date.

Regards,

 

[clarnibass]

Straightening keys is done by bending them

Your repairer most likely did exactly the right thing. Certain key joints require a minimum of buffering to work at their best - and sliding joints especially so.

I agree. It's often better and more reliable to bend a key or linkage than change to a thicker material because a thicker material could have all sorts of reliablity issues. I also agree with what you said earlier, how keys are not just bent back, but often bend to a better shape or position because the original position wasn't best.

 

[Chris Peryagh]

Some people do have a problem with repairers bending keys. I've had some myself, but if I didn't bend certain keys then things would look all wonky - such as side keys being out of alignment or to centre pad cups or trill key touches on clarinets all being various different heights. There's no other way to do that without bending anything. If they want the side Bb key on their sax to be higher, then the only way to do that is to bend the touchpiece arm to bring it higher (and then bring the side C and high E touches into alignment with it by bending them as well). If they want the low C touch level or lower with the Eb touch, then these too have to be bent to get them to the desired height as do the LH pinky keys. If they want the front F touch nearer the LH1 button, then it too will have to be bent.

If you didn't bend any keys during an overhaul, then you'll only run into problems with not enough action or too much venting or keys fouling against each other or some other things not working properly.

So expect some keywork will have to be bent in order to make things work. The majority of saxes built have keys bent to regulate them or for other reasons during manufacture anyway, so stop being so precious.

 

[cosmosis]

Bending metal strengthens it

Generally speaking, this is false. Metal have what's called a yield strength. Bending something to the point it doesn't return to it's original shape means it has been through plastic deformation (as opposed to elastic deformation). In some cases, the yield strength will increase slightly if you bend it again, but it's generally on it's way out (going to break). Generally plastic deformation of a metal is called "yielding" it and means it has been spent as a structural element. For example, if you land a plane so hard the wings droop a slight amount permanently, you are best to not get on that plane again. I'm not well educated on the metal type used for sax keys, but I doubt they are a special exception to how metals respond to being yielded.
But, the forces should put on the keys when playing should be far lower than anything near the yield point, so hopefully a bent key won't affect it's useful life. Also, I guess you have to consider, do you want keys that have never been bent or do you want a sax that plays?

 

[hornfixer]

I once took my early 10M to a shop to get some work done. When I play tested it, I noticed the G# key wasn't closing on the low notes. The tech took it back and bent the arm with some pliers rather than replacing the cork and handed it back to me. I'll never go back to that shop again.

I woulden't take it back because he bent the G# lever, but because he didn't adjust it in the first place.

 

[Stephen Howard]

Generally speaking, this is false.

Yep, you're right - I should have said 'stiffens', which isn't the same thing as strengthens.

Regards,

 

[slausonm]

I woulden't take it back because he bent the G# lever, but because he didn't adjust it in the first place.

This is a case of not enough information. I frequently see repairs done where layers of cork were added to regulate a mechanism when the repairer should have bent AKA straightened the key then added the appropriate amount of cork or bumper material for a firm long lived repair. Instead they got a springy action that was very squishy feeling and back in the shop quicker.

 

[Gordon (NZ)]

" I don't think I've worked on any woodwind instrument where I didn't have to bend anything."

Likewise. I would be a lousy tech if I did not make all those corrections to key alignment and linkages. That is exactly what an adjustment is all about, and what factories seldom do well.

A pro oboe has many more keys than a sax, and I seldom have to bend a key on a pro oboe. That is because they have about 25 adjusting screws, and because the factory aligns things pretty darn well, or the instrument would not play. That is not the case with saxes.

 

[Gordon (NZ)]

Generally speaking, this is false. Metal have what's called a yield strength. Bending something to the point it doesn't return to it's original shape means it has been through plastic deformation (as opposed to elastic deformation). In some cases, the yield strength will increase slightly if you bend it again, but it's generally on it's way out (going to break).... I'm not well educated on the metal type used for sax keys, but I doubt they are a special exception to how metals respond to being yielded.

Sax keys are almost always made from brass. The bending (past the yield point, then slightly back, for geometric stability) that is done is very slight, typically small fractions of a mm. You really would have to carry out such bends hundreds of times in the same place to have a significant effect in work hardening the metal to an extent that it was in danger of failing.

But, the forces should put on the keys when playing should be far lower than anything near the yield point...

Actually not true. On many models of sax, on both pro and cheap'n-nasty, if the alignment of the pads over tone holes is poor, then the pressure a player exerts, especially on the F and D keys, in order to make pads seal, is often quite enough to bend the key. And this is one reason that it is so important that a tech who knows what he is doing, corrects the alignment of key cups over tone holes, typically by bending, so that the player does not need to exert such pressure.

... do you want keys that have never been bent or do you want a sax that plays?

Indeed! Most keys are probably bent during factory adjustment, but just not accurately enough.

 

[Gordon (NZ)]

I woulden't take it back because he bent the G# lever, but because he didn't adjust it in the first place.

I agree...

And that adjustment almost certainly would involve bending, especially for that key. I would also take it back if he (or the manufacturer - very, very common - used a material in that linkage that was too thick and squishy (e.g. 1.6 mm natural cork, or soft felt), such that after a bit of playing the G# lever did not properly close the G# key. The remedy would be a more suitable material, of more suitable thickness followed by the necessary adjustment (by bending) to make that ideal combination function as it should.

It's high time that all anti-bending myths were put to rest.