Hello, I am mainly a tenor player. I started to play alto sax and struggle with intonation. I am aware that no sax plays perfectly in tune. In order to judge wether my alto Is in the acceptable range it would be good to know what is regarded as acceptable in cents for various notes. It would be nice of someone could chime in. Many thanks
Intonation tendencies alto sax
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welcome,
Let me say first of all that it is only normal, when you occasionally switch horn, to find it difficult to tune. Your body has learned to play the tenor and finds it difficult to adjust, you get signals that translate to a muscle memory that isn’t apt to deal with the alto. It will come to you.
Let me say first of all that it is only normal, when you occasionally switch horn, to find it difficult to tune. Your body has learned to play the tenor and finds it difficult to adjust, you get signals that translate to a muscle memory that isn’t apt to deal with the alto. It will come to you.
I'm not aware of any tables listing the objective degree of "acceptable" deviation from spot-on intonation for each note. What's acceptable will vary by player and probably by genre of music as well. What counts is whether your intonation is good enough for you and the other musicians with whom you're playing.
I assume your equipment -- saxophone, mouthpiece, reed -- is mechanically sound and is capable producing generally good intonation. What are you playing? If you rule out any unusual deficits in this department, then it's strictly a matter of practicing.
The notes that tend to be noticeably sharp or flat on an alto sax follow the familiar saxophone pattern. E.g., D2 tends to be sharp. If you've learned to cope with these notes on the tenor, you should be able to do so on the alto as well, allowing for the extra sensitivity of a smaller mouthpiece and shorter body tube.
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intonation, by the way, is a different concept when applied to playing against a tuner or laying in a musical context
the tuner is a good reference, but playing in tune has little to do with hitting 0 cent all the time
https://tamingthesaxophone.com/saxophone-intonation-tuning
the tuner is a good reference, but playing in tune has little to do with hitting 0 cent all the time
https://tamingthesaxophone.com/saxophone-intonation-tuning
As long as you're playing a well known saxophone and mouthpiece and the mouthpiece is of reasonable/moderate design, the intonation issues are you.
Rather than spending time staring at a tuner, at this point I'd be focusing on developing an alto embouchure and voicing, and getting a good compelling sound over the full range of the horn at all dynamic levels. If you have these things, intonation will take care of itself.
Practice overtones, too.
Rather than spending time staring at a tuner, at this point I'd be focusing on developing an alto embouchure and voicing, and getting a good compelling sound over the full range of the horn at all dynamic levels. If you have these things, intonation will take care of itself.
Practice overtones, too.
I guess you're using a tuner. I don't have a dedicated tuner, I use a phone app called 'Sound Corset'. The center range on a note using the 'analog' gauge is + or - 10 cents. Depending on the reed and the state of warm-up the sax and I are in, I adjust the mouthpiece so all notes fit in that center range - some will be on the upper end, some on the lower end. This 20 cent center range is colored green so I don't have to peer at it or wear reading glasses during practice. I also use it on gigs, at least in the set-up/sound check period and having this app has made a tremendous difference in my effectiveness in general and working with other horns in particular. Now obviously you can't stare at a tuner the whole time and it can't react to short notes, but if you use it every time you pick up the sax it will show you some amazing things about playing in tune. Some of these revelations will not be pleasant but now is always the time to find out what you need to work on from the playing standpoint and/or the sax itself, which may need to be 'voiced' for individual note response and tuning. I was doing this with my tenor the other day on the notes with the adjustable bumpers on the guards. It is also sometimes surprising how much reed selection can change intonation. This is because cane reeds can be different in resistance - when you have to play with more pressure, you'll find you also have to compensate for tuning with your embouchure. If you could find a synthetic you like, you can at least take that out of the picture because as long as it lasts, it will be pretty much the same every time.
Sometimes you have to get a better mouthpiece or horn if you can't manage intonation, but you probably should get with a good teacher before getting on the mouthpiece train. OTOH, if you're using a Chinese sax and trying to play the stock mouthpiece, picking up a name brand mouthpiece in about a #5 to #7 facing could be a big boost for you.
Sometimes you have to get a better mouthpiece or horn if you can't manage intonation, but you probably should get with a good teacher before getting on the mouthpiece train. OTOH, if you're using a Chinese sax and trying to play the stock mouthpiece, picking up a name brand mouthpiece in about a #5 to #7 facing could be a big boost for you.
To the OP: Embouchure for tenor is a little different than for alto. You might want to try this test that is often mentioned by member Saxoclese. Play just the mouthpiece and neck. On alto strive to play an Ab concert pitch. When I went from alto to tenor, I found this type of exercise to be very helpful. You also might want to try different reed strengths, particularly if you are experiencing flatness in the upper register.
Good luck!
Good luck!
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If you don't have one already, you may want to pick up "The Art of Saxophone Playing" by Larry Teal which is a "reference" for saxophone students and players. In the chapter on intonation he gives the "intonation tendencies" of both the alto and tenor saxophone along with suggested fingerings for "pitch alteration". This data was from a study conducted in 1943 so it only reflects makes and models of saxophones available up to that time. Adding the Selmer MkVI and Yamaha models that came later would probably change the averages, nevertheless the acoustical "tendencies" of the instrument have not changed that much since that time. Within 10 cents is often considered to be an acceptable pitch without lipping or "humoring" the pitch.
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Have you an idea of the range of variability due to key height?
I still think that investigation of the detailed intonation propensities of a particular horn is probably way premature in the case of someone who's just started to play alto sax for the first time ever. Unless you have a well established stable alto embouchure, you're not going to have reproducible results.
OP, if you have a suspicion that your particular instrument has odd intonation tendencies (why do you suspect this?) I would suggest you have an experienced preferably professional alto player evaluate it.
OP, if you have a suspicion that your particular instrument has odd intonation tendencies (why do you suspect this?) I would suggest you have an experienced preferably professional alto player evaluate it.
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That is an interesting topic. The short answer is no. I can say from experience that sharpness can be corrected somewhat by decreasing key openings up to the point that the note becomes "stuffy" and the tone is no longer clear. Generally I don't make adjustments that go beyond that point except for a few instances of a very sharp D2 where the best solution is a "compromise" between tone and pitch. I have read where Curt Altarac has experimented with lowering all of the key heights to drop the pitch in order to place the mouthpiece farther on to the cork to change the "taper of the cone" and therefore the harmonics (octaves) of the instrument. I don't know if he still does this or not. A few years ago I used Benade's equation in Acoustic Aspects of Woodwind Instruments by Nederveen to make a graph of the effects of key height on the pitch of the note D on the alto sax. This, of course, is entirely based upon mathematical theory but the calculations seem to be in line with the 1/3 of the diameter of the tonehole concept. The graph is attached as a pdf file.
My plan (someday) when I complete my "artificial embouchure" project is to to take measurements while the saxophone is being artificially "played" and compare the results with the figures from Benade's equation. Because such a study would be dealing in pitch differences of a few cents at each measurement, the variable of using a human player, no matter how skilled, would make accurate data difficult if not impossible to achieve.
Hello, thanks for all you answers. After playing the alto on and off for a couple of hours today and also doing some exercises just with the mouthpiece my intonation got much better. I guess I adjusted my embouchure to the alto and realised that I had the tendency to tighten up my throat. The alto is a Selmer mk6, I switched from a vandoren v16small to a medium chamber v16 which seems to have improved the intonation. I totally agree that it does not help to stare at a tuner to practice intonation. I used drones instead an played to some play alongs instead which is way more fun. 
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This, and the whole air speed and pressure thing is different to get good intonation as well. I'd be patient and allow time to let the intuitive adjustments take place. Maybe related, but its been discussed before, that sometimes doubling was encouraged on the same key instruments, like having bari players double on alto, and having tenor players double on soprano. There's a theory that there are similarities that benefit doubling by staying with Eb or Bb instruments, beyond just the same standard notation thing.
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Hi, I am a tenor player but occasionally get asked to play alto or both on a gig or when I record my originals I try to use alto in the higher parts to harmonize with my tenor like a small horn section but I am always blow sharp. I use the same mpc. and reeds on both but have found playing alto very frustratating even though it was my first horn as a kid. I might just start using my harmonizer with my tenor again and keep my alto just for memories plus they are both MkVI's! I can't figure this out! I had major work done on the alto I wonder if the horn just has bad intonation now ?
Nothing wrong with the horn, and a completely normal experience. As a tenor player the vast majority of the time myself, alto is also an intonation challenge for me until I get a significant amount of focused playing on it. Your brain is hardwired to intonate every single note on tenor unconsciously. So when you play alto, those same unconscious adjustments you constantly make don't work on that horn. To fix it, you just have to play enough alto to build that mental intonation map for alto as you did for tenor. If you want to maintain both your alto and tenor chops constantly, you'll have to play both constantly.
This was made painfully clear to me when rehearsing one day with my sax quartet where I double on bass sax and tenor. I had just finished playing a tune on bass and started playing the next tune on tenor. Most of the time, my brain switches gears and I play the tenor perfectly. But this particular time, it didn't switch. My embouchure stayed in bass mode, and for the first few notes, my tenor sounded as if it were being played by someone who'd never even played sax before. It was horrible, so much so that I laughed out loud. After I stopped and reset, everything was back to normal. So switching gears for alto and tenor is really as important as switching gears for sax and clarinet or flute and takes practice to be able to do it immediately, correctly and consistently.
Keilwerth saxes (S/A/T), Selmer clarinets (S/B), Altus Azumi flute
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In my experience, the main tendencies are for middle C# (i.e., C#2) to be slightly flat, and for the lower second octave (i.e., D2-F2, and especially E2) to be slightly sharp. As @saxoclese says, these shouldn't generally be more than 10 cents off. However, they might be close to that limit, which can make an interval like C#2 to E#2 (i.e., up to 20 cents net difference in "unhumored" intonation) challenging to play in tune on a horn that you're unaccustomed to.
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