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Tenor: Eastman 52nd St, Alto: P. Mauriat 67RDK, Soprano: Eastern Music Curvy
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Through my practices over the past few weeks, I've begun to notice my intonation is growing more and more all over the place on my alto.

It seemed to come on rather suddenly, and now appears to be different for almost every note across the range of the horn.

Any thoughts on specifics of what could specifically cause this? My embouchure hasn't changed, nor has my main setup. I have always had decent intonation, and been able to have most notes within a reasonable range (+-5 or so cents).

I fear it may finally be the end of life on some pads (12 years). Am I looking at full overhaul money if that's the case?
 

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Through my practices over the past few weeks, I've begun to notice my intonation is growing more and more all over the place on my alto.

It seemed to come on rather suddenly, and now appears to be different for almost every note across the range of the horn.

Any thoughts on specifics of what could specifically cause this? My embouchure hasn't changed, not has my main setup.

I fear it may finally be the end of life on some pads (12 years). Am I looking at full overhaul money if that's the case?
I might be wrong but pad issues are not going to cause intonation to go out of wack. They will cause response issues and squeaking and stuff like that but I never have heard them causing intonation issues. Please correct me if I am wrong you repair gurus.... If corks and felts under the key feet get worn down and fall off that can cause some issues with intonation though.
 

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Tenor: Eastman 52nd St, Alto: P. Mauriat 67RDK, Soprano: Eastern Music Curvy
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I might be wrong but pad issues are not going to cause intonation to go out of wack. They will cause response issues and squeaking and stuff like that but I never have heard them causing intonation issues. Please correct me if I am wrong you repair gurus.... If corks and felts under the key feet get worn down and fall off that can cause some issues with intonation though.
I should have thought that through. But it seems it would be even weirder for almost all my felts/corks to get this bad in the course of a couple weeks.

The heights would be equally as weird getting this far off at once . Especially since my horn hasn't been through anything that would cause maladjustments (no falls or anything, just sitting on a stand.)
 

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Tenor: Eastman 52nd St, Alto: P. Mauriat 67RDK, Soprano: Eastern Music Curvy
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Why do you say your intonation is all over the place?
Well, going over today's practice, After tuning (tuned to G for a backing), I went through chromatically with my normal Embouchure. Low Bb/B were about 15 cents sharp, C-E were 10 cents sharp, F-A were in Tune, Bb-C# were 5 cents flat, middle D was 20 cents sharp (Preadjustment - known horn problem). Mid eb-F#were 10 cents sharp. G2-A2 were 5 cents sharp. Bb-C# still flat. Palm keys were okay though.

Previously I would have almost all notes +/-5 cents or so (Middle D was about the only major outlier) and could make easy embouchure
adjustments that made it in tune.
 

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Tenor: Eastman 52nd St, Alto: P. Mauriat 67RDK, Soprano: Eastern Music Curvy
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Is it time for slightly harder reeds? Softer reeds? Take in more or less mouthpiece for better control?
Maybe a different Reed would help, I'll go through a few Reed's tomorrow to give it a shot tomorrow and try the tune test to see how it does. I think I've got a decent selection between 2.5-4.0.

As for amount of mouthpiece, I've been told I take in too much before, and thought I found the sweet spot. Would less be easier to control?
 

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My best guess is that your reed has gone soft.

Regarding taking more or less mouthpiece: It depends where you are. If you already don’t have much, then less would make it easier to change pitch with slight biting (not a good thing).

Congrats, tho’, on being aware of your intonation. See if you dial it in better if you listen to tune, rather than watch a tuner. Your mind/body will develop a more natural response to correcting intonation if you align it with your ears instead of your eyes.
 

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Well, going over today's practice, After tuning (tuned to G for a backing), I went through chromatically with my normal Embouchure. Low Bb/B were about 15 cents sharp, C-E were 10 cents sharp, F-A were in Tune, Bb-C# were 5 cents flat, middle D was 20 cents sharp (Preadjustment - known horn problem). Mid eb-F#were 10 cents sharp. G2-A2 were 5 cents sharp. Bb-C# still flat. Palm keys were okay though.

Previously I would have almost all notes +/-5 cents or so (Middle D was about the only major outlier) and could make easy embouchure
adjustments that made it in tune.
Did you change something recently? Other than that, how long have you been playing on the same reed? I ask because if you play a 3 reed for long enough, it becomes a 2 1/2 and then a 2. The softer it gets the more it is affected by the slightest embouchure changes.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
My best guess is that your reed has gone soft.

Regarding taking more or less mouthpiece: It depends where you are. If you already don';t have much, then less would make it easier to change pitch with slight biting (not a good thing).

Congrats, tho';, on being aware of your intonation. See if you dial it in better if you listen to tune, rather than watch a tuner. Your mind/body will develop a more natural response to correcting intonation if you align it with your ears instead of your eyes.
Well, it became alarming trying to play the head of Days of Wine and Roses slowly. Hurts my ears being that bad, so I ran up the tuner

I have been playing the same synthetic Forestone reed for about 2-3 months, not sure how long synths are supposed to last, normally cane I can feel giving out though. It being grossly softer would explain a lot , but it's harder to tell.

I'm pretty sure I am about where I need to be with mouthpiece amount, so I think I'll do some reed experimenting and check back in.
 

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Tenor: Eastman 52nd St, Alto: P. Mauriat 67RDK, Soprano: Eastern Music Curvy
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Did you change something recently? Other than that, how long have you been playing on the same reed? I ask because if you play a 3 reed for long enough, it becomes a 2 1/2 and then a 2. The softer it gets the more it is affected by the slightest embouchure changes.
Nothing changes, same horn, mpcs, reed- The synthetic Forestone White bamboo S (2) for somewhere between 2-3 months.

Any idea how often to change out a synthetic reed? Lol

I think you guys are onto this problem though, hopefully tomorrow I can get back on track. I couldn't even make a recording today, I was just constantly out of adjustment. I was so annoyed with my alto intonation lately.
 

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Through my practices over the past few weeks, I've begun to notice my intonation is growing more and more all over the place on my alto.

It seemed to come on rather suddenly, and now appears to be different for almost every note across the range of the horn.

Any thoughts on specifics of what could specifically cause this? My embouchure hasn't changed, nor has my main setup. I have always had decent intonation, and been able to have most notes within a reasonable range (+-5 or so cents).

I fear it may finally be the end of life on some pads (12 years). Am I looking at full overhaul money if that's the case?
I had this problem a few months back. The problem was me! My embouchure got out of whack. I had to get it back on track and now it's better. Here's a video that helped me.
.
 

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Tenor: Eastman 52nd St, Alto: P. Mauriat 67RDK, Soprano: Eastern Music Curvy
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I had intonation issues with Fibracells and Hartmann Fiberrreeds----- now I'm back to Vandoren Blue cane reeds and all issues are gone.
Actually intonation on Legere Signatures was fine, but they sounded dull.
Well I had similar issues with other synthetics. Up until this point the Forestones had been great.
 

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are you having the same issue on tenor? if you're playing more tenor than you were previously could that be impacting your alto embouchure. could be a sign from god that she wants you to just play tenor.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
are you having the same issue on tenor? if you're playing more tenor than you were previously could that be impacting your alto embouchure. could be a sign from god that she wants you to just play tenor.
Haha, no my tenor intonation has been pretty great! I am playing more tenor lately though so that could also have an impact, especially since I use a harder tenor reed than alto reed.

I'll never stop the alto though, no matter how many signs she sends 😛. I just gotta balance it better.
 

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Well, going over today's practice, After tuning (tuned to G for a backing), I went through chromatically with my normal Embouchure. Low Bb/B were about 15 cents sharp, C-E were 10 cents sharp, F-A were in Tune, Bb-C# were 5 cents flat, middle D was 20 cents sharp (Preadjustment - known horn problem). Mid eb-F#were 10 cents sharp. G2-A2 were 5 cents sharp. Bb-C# still flat. Palm keys were okay though.

Previously I would have almost all notes +/-5 cents or so (Middle D was about the only major outlier) and could make easy embouchure
adjustments that made it in tune.
In my teaching and playing experience + or - 5 cents for all notes is an unrealistic expectation for any make or model of saxophone. Your second figures are far more in the range of the typical pitch tendencies of the saxophone. When checking the pitch tendencies of an instrument I have found by experience that it works better to play the notes throughout the range of your instrument trying not to "lip" notes up or down (which my teacher called "humoring the pitch") while another person watches the tuner and records the pitch of each note. Doing this 3 or more times and averaging the results give a fairly accurate reading of the intonation tendencies of your instrument and manner of playing.

Another way to do this is to use an app available only for iphone called "AP Tuner" allows you to play an entire scale and it charts the pitch and intensity of each note. It also includes a tuner with a needle, and a strobe. The program with the same name you can download for your computer with Windows is not the same in that it only has a tuner and not the other features.

Other factors that affect the pitch and intonation are the room temperature, the dynamic level being played, and the hardness of the reed. Acoustic tests have shown that harder reeds play sharper in the upper register not only because the embouchure must be tighter to play them, but also the manner in which the thicker reed vibrates.

To put pitch in perspective auditory testing has found that the median pitch discrimination threshold for participants with formal music training was 12.85 cents as compared to 19.50 cents for those without formal music training. Notes in a musical passage that are within 10 cents of the tempered scale are not going to sound out of tune to the listener. Notes held as long tones if not "humored" to match pitch in perfect intervals that are not in tune are going be more obvious producing the number of "beats" per second corresponding with the difference in Hz between the two pitches.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
In my teaching and playing experience + or - 5 cents for all notes is an unrealistic expectation for any make or model of saxophone. Your second figures are far more in the range of the typical pitch tendencies of the saxophone. When checking the pitch tendencies of an instrument I have found by experience that it works better to play the notes throughout the range of your instrument trying not to "lip" notes up or down (which my teacher called "humoring the pitch") while another person watches the tuner and records the pitch of each note. Doing this 3 or more times and averaging the results give a fairly accurate reading of the intonation tendencies of your instrument and manner of playing.

Another way to do this is to use an app available only for iphone called "AP Tuner" allows you to play an entire scale and it charts the pitch and intensity of each note. It also includes a tuner with a needle, and a strobe. The program with the same name you can download for your computer with Windows is not the same in that it only has a tuner and not the other features.

Other factors that affect the pitch and intonation are the room temperature, the dynamic level being played, and the hardness of the reed. Acoustic tests have shown that harder reeds play sharper in the upper register not only because the embouchure must be tighter to play them, but also the manner in which the thicker reed vibrates.

To put pitch in perspective auditory testing has found that the median pitch discrimination threshold for participants with formal music training was 12.85 cents as compared to 19.50 cents for those without formal music training. Notes in a musical passage that are within 10 cents of the tempered scale are not going to sound out of tune to the listener. Notes held as long tones if not "humored" to match pitch in perfect intervals that are not in tune are going be more obvious producing the number of "beats" per second corresponding with the difference in Hz between the two pitches.
This is a very good explanation - and I agree my methods were not nearly as scientific. However, I have a decent feel for the normal subtle embouchure adjustments per note when I am able to wrangle it to the +/- 5 cents range. I wasn't trying to hold the same embouchure for each note, this was with the normal amount of adjustments I've been used to making - and still quite far off.

It was definitely audible to the listener though - as my instructor noted the intonation of something I worked on yesterday was indeed all over the place.

As a side test, I tried another tuning test today with the same old reed (no new reed yet, have some soaking for later testing). The tuning test I chose was the one where you tune the horn to itself - Low Bb, overtone to Middle Bb, then tune the overtone to the Bb. I wasn't even able to get them in tune. With my mouthpiece almost completely off the cork, they were about 10 cents apart still.

More to come once reeds are tried.
 

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This is a very good explanation - and I agree my methods were not nearly as scientific. However, I have a decent feel for the normal subtle embouchure adjustments per note when I am able to wrangle it to the +/- 5 cents range. I wasn't trying to hold the same embouchure for each note, this was with the normal amount of adjustments I've been used to making - and still quite far off.

It was definitely audible to the listener though - as my instructor noted the intonation of something I worked on yesterday was indeed all over the place.

As a side test, I tried another tuning test today with the same old reed (no new reed yet, have some soaking for later testing). The tuning test I chose was the one where you tune the horn to itself - Low Bb, overtone to Middle Bb, then tune the overtone to the Bb. I wasn't even able to get them in tune. With my mouthpiece almost completely off the cork, they were about 10 cents apart still.

More to come once reeds are tried.
I checked out some of your recordings. So please don't take my comments personally, but as constructive criticism.

Like everybody, I was a beginner once. I have taught many, many beginners, including my own children. What I'm hearing is very typical of a beginner who has not gained enough experience to control the pitch. There is nothing wrong with your horn or your mouthpiece. It's obvious to me that you're biting to get the note to speak, so this uneven bite pressure results in the pitch going all over the place, which is very common with beginners. Air stream direction and the shape of the inside of your mouth also affect intonation. But that aspect is more difficult to describe and to control. Thankfully that part usually works itself out naturally. But if reducing biting doesn't work after a few weeks, we'll have to address this aspect.

The solution is don't bite, at all, ever (except maybe super high altissimo). Support the bottom of the reed with chin muscles, not the jaw. When you do this, it's going to be really hard to get the notes to speak until you build up your embouchure. So switch to a softer reed and pull out until you get it under control. Do long tones with a relaxed jaw, but firm chin muscle support. It will be uneven and unsteady at first. But over the course of a month, things will start to come together. Unfortunately there are no shortcuts. Keep working on other things and having fun playing tunes as well. But the long tones right now are critical to developing your chops and will be your foundation going forward. But you have to be very patient. Beginners can often take up to a year or more to get their sound under control, but it's much less if they really focus on it.

I strongly advise beginners to avoid synthetics. They're easy to get a sound out of and are low maintenance, but they respond strangely and unevenly and take some skill to control. Get some soft cane reeds. Go back to synthetic if you prefer them AFTER you get your tone under control and learn the basics.

For a step by step approach, play a C, very relaxed, and move the mouthpiece until it's in tune with a drone or some other pitch reference you can hear. Play this note steady and in tune for 8-12 beats if you can. Now repeat with B and keep working your way down to low F (keep the mouthpiece where it was for C). Now return to C and work your way up to middle F. Don't move on to the next note until you can play the current one in tune. In your next practice session go a little lower and a little higher. In a week or two, you should be able to play every note in tune.

I encourage others giving advice in this thread to listen to your recordings before doing too much speculation and guesswork.
 

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mdavej is giving you good advice. I will just add that perhaps your ears are getting better. In other words, you can now hear intonation problems that you couldn’t hear before. This is very normal as we get to be better players.
 
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