[Bart56]

My understanding of intonation comes from my guitars where I play an open string, then at the 12th fret of the same string. If they don't match, my intonation is off. If the 12th fret is higher, I have to move the bridge further away from the head. So, with that understanding, I have the following dilemma that I hope someone can help with.

I play a G (or A, or whatever in the lower register) on my alto using a tuner to get me on the right frequency. When I open the octave key it plays sharp (not quite G# but close) until I release pressure on the reed. This is counter intuitive to me as I expect to have to apply more reed pressure in the high notes. After altering my pressure to get back in tune to the high G, I release the octave key and I have to increase pressure because the low G is flat.

Can someone shed some light on this? I've tried pulling out the mouthpiece to compensate but It just moves the problem a bit - i.e. fix the high G but the low G is off.

Besides me, could this be a problem with the horn ('64 HA Selmer Bundy) or is this fairly common with all horns?

Thanks for any insights. I would hate to learn to adjust to this only to learn something else is not right with the horn. Is this even a valid test?

Cheers and thanks.

 

[Reedscraper]

My understanding of intonation comes from my guitars where I play an open string, then at the 12th fret of the same string. If they don't match, my intonation is off. If the 12th fret is higher, I have to move the bridge further away from the head. So, with that understanding, I have the following dilemma that I hope someone can help with.

I play a G (or A, or whatever in the lower register) on my alto using a tuner to get me on the right frequency. When I open the octave key it plays sharp (not quite G# but close) until I release pressure on the reed. This is counter intuitive to me as I expect to have to apply more reed pressure in the high notes. After altering my pressure to get back in tune to the high G, I release the octave key and I have to increase pressure because the low G is flat.

Can someone shed some light on this? I've tried pulling out the mouthpiece to compensate but It just moves the problem a bit - i.e. fix the high G but the low G is off.

Besides me, could this be a problem with the horn ('64 HA Selmer Bundy) or is this fairly common with all horns?

Thanks for any insights. I would hate to learn to adjust to this only to learn something else is not right with the horn. Is this even a valid test?

Cheers and thanks.

Tune to the orchestral concert A, 5th line F# for alto. That is a much more stable note. Avoid added pressure on the reed for upper octaves. This is really "biting" which is to be avoided. Also avoid tightening the throat or raising the larynx as though you are singing higher pitches. Work with a tuner until you find the magic spots for correct voicing with the larynx. This process can improve rapidly so that's the good news.

 

[lydian]

Sorry, but it's you. Jaw pressure is just one of many things that affect intonation. Air speed, air pressure, air direction, volume inside mouth, volume inside throat, articulation, how much or little mouthpiece you put in your mouth, etc. That's your embouchure and air support. Then you have to factor in the reed strength, mouthpiece opening, lay length, chamber size, etc. All these things simply take repetition and time to dial in. And each and every note has it's own parameters that you'll have to learn. Keep doing what you're doing, and that set of parameters you need for low G versus high G will become automatic. Same goes for all other notes. It doesn't happen over night. Beginners often sound really terrible for a while. Then it should eventually click.

Sax is a little bit like violin. You have a ton of pitch flexibility. But this is a double edge sword. Get it under control and you'll eventually play perfectly in tune and be able to bend whenever you want.

Bottom line. Get the low G in tune with a good, comfortable embouchure, open throat, good air support (blow hard enough and at a constant pressure). Press the octave key and make adjustments with the volume of your mouth/throat, air direction, embouchure, etc. to get it in tune. Avoid biting to bring up the pitch. Repeat until you can nail the high and low G instantly. Now do the same for G#, F#, etc. until you've been through all the notes. This could take weeks. But slow and steady at this stage pays big dividends down the line.

Ideally, one on one with a teacher is critical at this stage if you can swing it. Even something over Zoom or Skype is better than nothing. It's really easy for self taught players to leave the gate doing many things wrong that they have to unlearn later on.

 

[Bart56]

Good advice Reedscraper and mdavej - thanks. One thing I did notice since I wrote thi was that it was worse for A than G - meaning the neck pip is closed for both high and low. The tuner showed a full semitone higher for the high A - so that takes a lot of relaxation on the reed to bring it down compared to the pressure for middle A.

I'll try the F# tuning and see where that leads.

Again,thanks for the suggestions. I'm always thinking it's me but it was such a stark deference that I thought something may be wrong mechanically. I am playing a Yamaha 4C with Vandoren 2-1/2 reed. I tried Rico 2's but they felt too soft.

 

[lydian]

Please provide more detail. Here's how it's supposed to work:

Low G/A - neck pip closed, body pip closed
High G - neck pip closed, body pip open
High A - neck pip open, body pip closed

Regardless, you should be able to play middle and high A or G in tune without using octave key at all. So let's focus on what you can do without using the octave key. Sounds like you're biting too much on your middle A and G. Relax the embouchure, push in the mouthpiece on the cork until it's in tune, then try the higher octave.

How's your ear? Can you tell if the octaves are in tune with each other without looking at a tuner? It's possible you misunderstand how sax works with a tuner. It's not like a guitar where you play an E and the tuner shows E. On alto sax, play an E and the tuner will correctly show G. Play G and it should show Bb. A should show C.

 

[KeithL]

Again,thanks for the suggestions. I'm always thinking it's me but it was such a stark deference that I thought something may be wrong mechanically. I am playing a Yamaha 4C with Vandoren 2-1/2 reed. I tried Rico 2's but they felt too soft.

Well yes and no. Realize, the saxophone is a very imperfect instrument with a lot of compromises. Ideally there would be a separate octave vent for each note at a slightly different location but mechanically this is untenable so instead you have just two vents with the one on the body having a small piece of tubing attached to it on the inside of the horn to try and normalize the D2-G#2 intonation. So a saxophone is never really "in-tune" the way a piano or guitar might be. You tune the instrument as best possible by getting the largest number of notes to be as close to in-tune with some reference as possible then the player must make the necessary adjustments from there. That's what the two previous posts are referring to when they mention "voicing" and "making adjustments....". Some notes will require more adjustment by the player than others. Each voice, brand, and model of saxophone will be slightly different to begin with and then the design of the mouthpiece being used can also have a great deal of effect as well.

I would strongly suggest you find a good instructor and take at least a few lessons to work some of this stuff out. It's very easy to develop bad habits early on when first learning to play sax that can be hard to break later. I can also be very frustrating to try and overcome issues and problems by yourself which will slow your progress.

 

[lydian]

Trying to better diagnose your problem, I see from some older posts you used to play clarinet and that your lower teeth are cutting into your lip. Are you trying to use a clarinet embouchure (flat chin, corners pulled back) on sax? That is probably the root cause of your intonation and low note problems. I'm not convinced there's anything wrong with your horn. I've played a few of my students' Bundys over the years and can make them sound just about as lush and rich as my MK VI. No intonation issues that I can remember.

I can't come up with any mechanical failure scenario that would make an upper octave note a half step sharp. It really has to be your embouchure. Very common for beginners to have terrible intonation at first, especially since you're just re-starting after decades of not playing. Your embouchure is very weak and hard to control at this point. Maybe build up some strength and stamina with long tones on your good notes for a week or so before you tackle intonation again.

 

[Merlin]

This is the single most useful document I've ever read on saxophone intonation:

https://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/Documents/BandOrchestra/Wind_Tips_Duke.pdf

 

[skeller047]

I've got three things to say on this subject.

1) Read the document that Merlin linked to, it's very good.

2) Don't tune to a tuner, tune to a drone or sustained note from a piano or synth (or guitar!) The reason for this is that saxophone harmonics aren't always quite in tune with each other, and a note can be dead on with the tuner and still sound out of tune.

3) I tune this way. Play a B2 (that's LH index finger, no octave key). Then "slur" to low B, but overblown so it plays the same octave as B2. Adjust your mouthpiece so that these two pitches are in tune with each other. If normal B2 is flat, push in; if it's sharp, pull out. The overblown low B won't change pitch as much.

Once you've done #3, learn to play your horn so that it's in tune with the mouthpiece at that position. This is a complement to the Stephen Duke paper. Both approaches result in a much more relaxed embouchure.

 

[saxoclese]

The tuning issue mentioned in this thread is not uncommon for players starting out. Some good advice has already been offered. Let me add a few more ideas. On the saxophone certain notes have a tendency to be slightly sharp such as G2, G#2 and E2. Notes that are often even more sharp are D2, A2, and C#2. Here is why: The octave vents on a saxophone are in a compromise position so they can work (sort of) for several notes. Gary Scavone * writes that the body octave vent is in the ideal location for the note F, and the neck octave vent is in the ideal location for the note B. The farther away a note is from the ideal note, the sharper it becomes when the octave vent opens. Hence the notes farthest from F that use the body octave vent D - 3 half steps below, and G# - 3 half steps above tend to be the sharpest. The notes C# and A - 2 half steps above and below the B tend to be the sharpest. The palm keys---the farthest away are different since there is no (normal) use of those fingerings in the lower octave.

The other thing I have learned is that playing too high on the mouthpiece (input pitch) exacerbates the natural tendency of some notes (and registers) on the saxophone to be sharp. A rough rule of thumb is that for alto the pitch on the mouthpiece alone should be no higher than A = 880, and the pitch of the mouthpiece and neck should be close to Ab concert (F2). A common misconception among some beginners --- especially those who are self taught is that you "tighten" for the high register and "relax" for the low register. Except for the minor changes advance players use to "lip" notes in tune, the saxophone uses the same embouchure from low Bb to high F --- another exception is the use of "subtone" when playing jazz style.

The tuning sequence that works well for me on alto is to first check my "input pitch" and then adjust the position of the mouthpiece so that playing mf F#1 (A concert) is in tune. Then check F#2 both with and without the octave key. On a well made saxophone and using good tone production skills they should match or be very close. Then I finger low B and "overblow" to the 2nd harmonic which is F#2. This is accomplished by blowing slightly faster air and raising the back of the tongue as if saying "EE". This F#2 should also be a close match to the other 2. Sometimes at this point I make very small adjustments to the mouthpiece position to get the best "compromise".

* acoustic scientist at McGill University

 

[Bart56]

This is the single most useful document I've ever read on saxophone intonation:

https://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/Documents/BandOrchestra/Wind_Tips_Duke.pdf

Excellent article! Thanks Merlin.

 

[Bart56]

@mdavej: The neck and body pips work as you describe. After reading the article Merlin sent, I did the tests and found a better placement for the mouthpiece. The problem is of course me trying to compensate for poor mouthpiece position, so it seems fine now. I was really trying to understand intonation better because that's what it looked like. The article straightened me out there.

I see from some older posts you used to play clarinet and that your lower teeth are cutting into your lip. Are you trying to use a clarinet embouchure (flat chin, corners pulled back) on sax?

I looked at my embouchure and I don't believe I pull my corners back but I do tend to put pressure on the reed with my lower jaw/teeth/lip which is a hangover from my clarinet days. The new mouthpiece placement makes it looser in my mouth but although the pitch is better, the tone is suffering from the looseness and lack of control. I'm sure I'll have to lear to control it better with a looser embouchure.

I an hold a steady pitch (for a fair amount of time) but the tone is weak. I move my tongue and change my oral cavity looking for a better sound but it still eludes me. I also notice that my tongue is pretty close to the reed and sometimes it touches it inadvertently. I'm working on it.

Thank you all for an excellent description of what to check and how to tune..

 

[lydian]

I'm glad that's solved.

The so-called loose embouchure isn't really all that loose. It's loose in the sense that you don't bite. But you must provide a lot of support with the chin and lip muscles rather than the jaw and teeth. If you put your finger in your mouth as if it were the mouthpiece the chin muscles should hold it quite firmly, so much so that it should be difficult to remove your finger. These embouchure muscles are what gives you a good tone and control.

The tongue (position and articulation technique) is just the first thing that jumped out at me that you needed to work on.

 

[swperry1]

Yeah, You can’t really compare “tuning” your saxophone with tuning your fretted guitar or bass...a fretless presents a more relatable experience where you get close by finding the sweet zone on the neck cork/ tuning the open strings and finding/ matching your octaves, but after that the keys get you close but the rest is on your ear and muscle memory gained by practicing.

 

[Bart56]

Thanks everyone.
Your right about intonation. I was thinking of it simply like the fretted guitar, that the octaves should be in tune. I had no idea that we are supposed to tune it as we play with our embouchure, once we get it in the ballpark. The tech article was very helpful there as well.
It feels like a setback, so I've got work to do. I can't imagine what I sounded like way back in the day in that 5 piece band playing the alto and the clarinet (didn't play guitar back then).
Well, better now than later.

Cheers,
Bart

 

[swperry1]

Thanks everyone.
Your right about intonation. I was thinking of it simply like the fretted guitar, that the octaves should be in tune. I had no idea that we are supposed to tune it as we play with our embouchure, once we get it in the ballpark. The tech article was very helpful there as well.
It feels like a setback, so I've got work to do. I can't imagine what I sounded like way back in the day in that 5 piece band playing the alto and the clarinet (didn't play guitar back then).
Well, better now than later.

Cheers,
Bart

Don't forget to have fun! The advice a couple others gave about taking some lessons is definitely the way to go if you can swing it. It's really easy to get hung up on terminology and overthinking throat, tongue, airspeed stuff that happens naturally if you're doing it right.

 

[twocircles]

I play soprano and minor annoyances on other saxophones become major problems on the soprano.

I think all the advice that has been given is spot on and will guide you in the right direction.

I’d like to backtrack to equipment though. A leak-free horn in good working order is a joy to play. If you don’t know when your sax last went to the shop, it might be worth a check up and at least minor repairs, if needed. This is an unlikely source of intonation problems, but all sorts of other problems can impede your progress with a leaky or malfunctioning sax.

The guitar string on a sax is the reed, and it needs to vibrate freely. You’v already been told to avoid biting, which impairs the vibration of the reed. And, you’ve been told about airflow and its control. These are the first go-to’s for intonation, but again focusing on your equipment, a flat table, even, balanced rails and tip also allow the reed to vibrate freely and consistently. This is vital for soprano intonation, and the bigger the sax the less minor discrepancies matter. But, even on my alto, a well balanced mouthpiece is more enjoyable to play. A refacer can check your mouthpiece.

Especially as a beginner, simple checks of your horn and mouthpiece can allow you to have confidence in your equipment and free you to focus on all the things that you need to learn and do to play well.

 

[hfrank]

Try to focus for a bit on air support and tongue positioning. Both are super important. Octave pipes they just provide stability but don't rely on them for intonation. I would try something simple like "Over the Rainbow " for example to get those octaves even. Support the embouchure from the lowest to the highest note. To demonstrate how IMPORTANT tongue and air support are try this: finger for example middle B and play it in tune at first. Then with the same position think of slightly lower pitch. You will see how note bends down. It doesn't happen for free. You will realise you have to change something slightly inside the oral cavity in order to achieve that. In this case it's lowering the pitch, but the idea of intonation control is the same. In the octave do the opposite, support more from the stomach. Almost like from the stomach to the surface of your tongue without thinking about anything in between. It will feel natural eventually and you will be able to alter more areas inside your mouth to achieve certain desired effect, colors..... Important: for now try to find your comfort point to blow towards inside the mouthpiece. For example some players blow towards the baffle, others towards the chamber or anything in between. My point is eventually you will do either, but if a player who blows towards the baffle changes slightly the angle to blow towards the chamber without altering air stream.. etc , the pitch will go lower.

 

[Bart56]

Thanks hfrank.
I've been focusing on both. I think m tongue still touches the reed now and then and I think it's because I am trying to play quietly. I catch myself doing it and then move it out of the way and of course it gets louder. Such a weird habit to break.

Although I think I'm doing ok in the air support area, I still have trouble on low notes with an air attack. I can play my way down to low b flat or once I start (by tonguing it) I can start and stop using breath alone (haa, haa - blowing warm air, not taa taa). Sometimes it wants to do the first octave overtone, so when I can, I practice my overtones so I learn to control it better.

Blowing toward the inside of the mouthpiece is kind f unclear (versus blowing into the baffle or chamber.) I'm thinking you are referring to different angles like having the neck pointing slightly up or down away from the mouth - is that it?

Different reeds and different days can sometimes make the b flat easy. I sometimes find the reed getting dry in my mouth as I play it, so I have to pull it out and lick it often. It's funny how wet the swab is after I practice when sometimes the reed feels so dry. Still working on it.

Thanks!

 

[hfrank]

Yes that's kinda what I meant, playing angle which directly affects obviously the airstream direction. You can try taking more or less mouthpiece inside in the meantime that could address certain issues. Don't take too seriously the warm air part, that's just a psychological trick to make you keep an open and relaxed throat.