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Discussion Starter #1
I saw a video on youtube that I found misleading and rather halfbaked using a lot of common hype assumptions. I felt that it would mislead a lot of people so I made a rather long video response. It might not be for everyone, but at least for some who want to learn about vintage Selmers from a rather experienced viewpoint this might be really interesting if you can make it through. I am on this video expressing many of my ideas from many years of collecting, playing and restoring vintage horns. Thanks for watching.

http://hornedtoadmusic.com/indepth-...f-the-mk-vi-and-vintage-selmers/#.XDVpJy3MwWo
 

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I saw a video on youtube that I found misleading and rather halfbaked using a lot of common hype assumptions. I felt that it would mislead a lot of people so I made a rather long video response. It might not be for everyone, but at least for some who want to learn about vintage Selmers from a rather experienced viewpoint this might be really interesting if you can make it through. I am on this video expressing many of my ideas from many years of collecting, playing and restoring vintage horns. Thanks for watching.

http://hornedtoadmusic.com/indepth-...f-the-mk-vi-and-vintage-selmers/#.XDVpJy3MwWo
Some contemplative thoughts. I liked the reminder that old horns were new horns once, and age has to be considered when comparing with new horns. I also liked the emphasis that many horns aren't setup precisely correct, even after a rebuild, depending on the competence of the tech. I thought the discussion that you need to sound like you, unique and genuine, and the horn is just a vehicle for your built-in sound, was productive. And I think its important to recognize any tonal differences in serial number ranges as just different - not better or worse. I personally wouldn't want a darker horn than my 150k's, if older MVIs are darker or more complex for instance. Thanks for sharing your experience and observations.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Some 150k tenors are on the darker side actually, but that period will consistently have a certain biting quality that is engineered into all of them. So if it is darker then it is a darker horn with a bite to it. Some 'dark' horns for example in the 60's and 70k's would be like the edge itself was also dark. That said, the 150k is not generally the brightest VI period in my experience.
 

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Horned Toad,
Thank you for your sharing your experience on this video. I'm sure there are a lot of us out there who would benefit from having a reference to consult on this topic.
Perhaps you could put out a document or a sticky that would describe differing characteristics of various ranges of the MK VI. (Realizing that there are many factors that influence the sound of any one particular horn).
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I actually started that discussion here some years back and I saved my article on my site. I cannot seem to properly search and find the thread here, maybe someone else can but here it is anyhow. Maybe it needs some revision, I think it mostly talked about Tenors:

http://hornedtoadmusic.com/characte...and-sba-by-serial-number-period/#.XDZQTC3MwWo

Horned Toad,
Thank you for your sharing your experience on this video. I'm sure there are a lot of us out there who would benefit from having a reference to consult on this topic.
Perhaps you could put out a document or a sticky that would describe differing characteristics of various ranges of the MK VI. (Realizing that there are many factors that influence the sound of any one particular horn).
 

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Thanks for sharing. "You are not Unique" and "Make you more interesting." were my favorite lines. Good Stuff.

I bought my first Mark VI tenor as an 8th grader out of the newspaper classified ads back in 1980-81 with my lawn moving money. It was a very late 200,000+ serial number. I didn't know anything and had it relacquered when I was in 10th grade playing it until my 2nd year of college. When I was 20 my college sax professor told me a local pro was selling his Mark VI tenor and I should buy it. So I did - it was a 97.XXX Mark VI. 31 years later I still play that horn everyday. I've had it overhauled twice - It's probably on life 6 or 7.

Does it have issues - absolutely - the low end is always difficult particularly low C#. Does is crush in every other way - Absolutely. It just has a sound that makes people stop and listen. Hard to explain.
 

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The funny thing (to me) is that I was able to correctly identify the video to which this video is replying even before watching the video in this thread. After I viewed the first video a couple of weeks ago, I thought, "Interesting, but I bet these comments will be quite unpopular with Mark VI fans." So the moment I saw this thread, I knew why it was posted.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
If your low C# is troublesome that is most likely an adjustment issue in the absence of some unseen damage. That is most likely a subtle adjustment that someone missed.

Thanks for sharing. "You are not Unique" and "Make you more interesting." were my favorite lines. Good Stuff.

I bought my first Mark VI tenor as an 8th grader out of the newspaper classified ads back in 1980-81 with my lawn moving money. It was a very late 200,000+ serial number. I didn't know anything and had it relacquered when I was in 10th grade playing it until my 2nd year of college. When I was 20 my college sax professor told me a local pro was selling his Mark VI tenor and I should buy it. So I did - it was a 97.XXX Mark VI. 31 years later I still play that horn everyday. I've had it overhauled twice - It's probably on life 6 or 7.

Does it have issues - absolutely - the low end is always difficult particularly low C#. Does is crush in every other way - Absolutely. It just has a sound makes people stop and listen. Hard to explain.
 

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The funny thing (to me) is that I was able to correctly identify the video to which this video is replying even before watching the video in this thread. After I viewed the first video a couple of weeks ago, I thought, "Interesting, but I bet these comments will be quite unpopular with Mark VI fans." So the moment I saw this thread, I knew why it was posted.
Yes unpopular with those trying to sell MkVi hmmmmm
 

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Yes unpopular with those trying to sell MkVi hmmmmm
It's unpopular because the opinion was ridiculous.

Talking about how a horn is overhyped, while owning said horn is BS to me. If something's overhyped, I sell it and pocket the profit. If it didn't have the hype would he have held on to it? I highly doubt it. Saying a horn is overhyped because the regulation gets old is also dumb. Play the heck out of a Yanagisawa in 5 years and it'll wear out too--modern horns aren't made out of magical pixie dust that make them immune to wear.

I get that Mark VI isn't the end-all-be-all. Some people may like a King or Conn more. Okay, sure. But to say it's overhyped, when pretty much all makers have ripped off the design of the Mark VI strikes me as shallow clickbait. All the bigname makers--Keilwerth, Yamaha, Yanigsawa, Cannonball, you name it--have copied the Mark VI's major design elements, like radial key layout, table, lower stack keyguards, etc. Also the opinion wasn't backed by anything conclusive, and was mainly anecdotal.

If he hasn't played a well-adjusted vintage VI, maybe his repairers just aren't good. My SBA has tight keywork, is responsive, and has great pitch, in spit of being a dreaded relaq. Heck the pitch is more consistent than a Yamaha 875 that I've played. And that's from 1949.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Yes unpopular with those trying to sell MkVi hmmmmm
Oh yawn... get real. Eventually some of you folks just need to grow up, pull your pants up. Get a MK VI if you like or not and stop getting bent out of shape over people buying and selling and talking about them. The "hate on people who sell things" is also really really stupid. You are attempting to convince the world that people who collect-buy-sell-restore AND PLAY selmers cannot discuss them without being utterly motivated by evil capitalism etc...

Here is a little fun fact for your small mindedness: Anyone who gets into selling vintage horns for purely money is idiotic and destined to fail. WHy is that? Because in reality it makes very little money. Yeah the prices are high but we don't buy them cheap either. Every horn is a pretty hefty investment, and then there is a lot of sweat if one needs to overhaul, and the sale price is usually not much higher than the purchase price was. The margin is often tiny. If one is not ENJOYING finding, playing, experiencing and sharing vintage horns then the whole stupid project would be a big waste of time and just tie up your money, because some stuff takes forever to sell.

I have been into vintage Selmers for decades because I am a horn fanatic and hunting, buying, restoring, selling all lets me play many horns. I found the best horns for myself by doing that. A number of others have also found their best horns from me, so I am quite satisfied with the project.


People like you who just constantly drop in to attack character for no apparent reason other than that you are jealous and/or bitter are just a waste of space and an example of a human that simply cannot move on.

I made this video for OTHER people's benefit. I had horns for sale before it and horns for sale after it. If you think a 50 minute nerd-ramble is going to convince people to buy expensive horns they otherwise would never consider then you apparently think they are all at your mental level (they are not). People usually are pretty careful with purchases above $5k regardless of what some unimportant person like me blabs about. Grow up and learn to say nice things I suggest.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
It's unpopular because the opinion was ridiculous.

....But to say it's overhyped, when pretty much all makers have ripped off the design of the Mark VI strikes me as shallow clickbait....
That's it right there, thank you. I found the video to be just silly and also saw it shameless clickbait. The video was pretty highly produced and made flashy banking on the clicks from the anti-MK VI ranters and the uninformed looking for info. What exactly are THEY trying to promote (themselves?) I don't really know but as someone who actually has experience restoring and playing such horns I did not really appreciate the total misinformation in the service of their self promotion.
 

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I found your video very informative. Thanks a lot for sharing your thoughts!
I'm also a great enthusiast of old horns, and a Link player, as well as a few others in the Link style.
Although I have been playing them for decades as well, I haven't played even remotely the number of saxes you have. It's great to hear your opinion on the various VI periods.
 

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Oh yawn... get real. Eventually some of you folks just need to grow up, pull your pants up. Get a MK VI if you like or not and stop getting bent out of shape over people buying and selling and talking about them. The "hate on people who sell things" is also really really stupid. You are attempting to convince the world that people who collect-buy-sell-restore AND PLAY selmers cannot discuss them without being utterly motivated by evil capitalism etc...

Here is a little fun fact for your small mindedness: Anyone who gets into selling vintage horns for purely money is idiotic and destined to fail. WHy is that? Because in reality it makes very little money. Yeah the prices are high but we don't buy them cheap either. Every horn is a pretty hefty investment, and then there is a lot of sweat if one needs to overhaul, and the sale price is usually not much higher than the purchase price was. The margin is often tiny. If one is not ENJOYING finding, playing, experiencing and sharing vintage horns then the whole stupid project would be a big waste of time and just tie up your money, because some stuff takes forever to sell.

I have been into vintage Selmers for decades because I am a horn fanatic and hunting, buying, restoring, selling all lets me play many horns. I found the best horns for myself by doing that. A number of others have also found their best horns from me, so I am quite satisfied with the project.


People like you who just constantly drop in to attack character for no apparent reason other than that you are jealous and/or bitter are just a waste of space and an example of a human that simply cannot move on.

I made this video for OTHER people's benefit. I had horns for sale before it and horns for sale after it. If you think a 50 minute nerd-ramble is going to convince people to buy expensive horns they otherwise would never consider then you apparently think they are all at your mental level (they are not). People usually are pretty careful with purchases above $5k regardless of what some unimportant person like me blabs about. Grow up and learn to say nice things I suggest.
wow you really got an imagination from my one sentence. Especially the first sentence you wrote. Since I sell horns on this site, to include Selmer, and talk about them you completely missed the mark. Get back on your meds.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
wow you really got an imagination from my one sentence. Especially the first sentence you wrote. Since I sell horns on this site, to include Selmer, and talk about them you completely missed the mark. Get back on your meds.
No one should need to use their imagination to guess why you are jealous or competitive online. That is a personal weakness that you should just resolve privately.

When you casually drop in to say that I made this video and shared this (false) info only to protect my profits, and its all just motivated by greed, you are going to get a normal response. People actually notice when you behave like that.

Those who respond to trolling are always "off their meds" though right? Insult someone and they are just outrageous for noticing and responding? That is what you want us to think?

Please get some manners and/or learn how to just be nice. Don't play the baby and whine when you get exposed for being rude and ugly online. Did you see anyone else bringing the negative ugliness? No it's a nice discussion and everyone is having fun. You might try that approach.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
IMO nothing that that guy at BetterSax says should be taken too seriously.

He has some good advice for beginners as do many other youtubers. But he has said some really dumb stuff over the years.
I don't think I have seen any of their other videos as I don't normally search for such things. This one just kind of popped up and I saw it by accident. It's a thing though, to make videos on topics that have some level of audience hungry for actual education and really overly simplify them to give people a sense of fulfillment and get a lot of clicks and attention. In this case you have a significant number of this audience who either cannot find a decent MK VI, or don't have the technical confidence to make the risky purchase, or maybe just can't or wont ever be able to afford it. It is super gratifying for them to be told by a "repair tech" and "pro shop" that those horns they cannot afford, or don't have the expertise to invest in (that others say are legendary) are actually overrated old pieces of crap. That is really like cocaine happy pills for that youtube audience. It's false though. Either it is all for the clicks or they (that shop) is really that clueless, I don't really know.

Come to think of it, it is almost like the saxophone "Incels". :mrgreen:
 

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The funny thing (to me) is that I was able to correctly identify the video to which this video is replying even before watching the video in this thread. After I viewed the first video a couple of weeks ago, I thought, "Interesting, but I bet these comments will be quite unpopular with Mark VI fans." So the moment I saw this thread, I knew why it was posted.
I actually thought of the same video too, before clicking the link.

Ironically, I do think people buy too much into the Mark VI mystique, of different serials and whatever. But given the high variability of Selmer Mark VIs, not only serials, but from horn to horn, it's impossible to give a broadbrush generalization about them.
 

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Funny how you outed your motivations yourself, when I only said the video was unpopular with those selling MKVI. However you must be a mind reader because I do believe you made this video to promote your horn sales. I do believe the crazy prices you list them at are motivated by greed. The video is threatening to your future sales and pricing and so you must attack it. I'm glad we have come to an agreement. I own several Selmer horns, MKVI, BA and others. However like this guy in the video, I have found them to be over hyped. Please continue to over hype them though because mine are investments.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
...you outed your motivations yourself...I do believe you made this video to promote your horn sales. I do believe the crazy prices you list them at are motivated by greed. The video is threatening to your future sales and pricing and so you must attack it....Please continue to over hype them though because mine are investments.

The only thing outed here is the motivations behind your trolling. Everyone already knows me, and it was stupidly obvious that I sell horns before you revealed that great mystery. I collect more horns than I sell LOL!

So now you have:
1) revealed that I am an evil capitalist, autocratic, elitist investment banker who owns 8 super-yachts,
2) exposed the long held secret that videos get people noticed,
3) signaled your magical and weeping virtue to the entire internet,
4) revealed that you invest in horns, but resent others that also do so,
5) protected the internet from dangerous vintage sax experts who share model information because someone might buy a horn from them.



I think we may have checked all the boxes. I know SOTW does a generally lackluster job of managing trolls like yourself, but at this point, are you done? Perhaps you might try to control your jealousy yourself a bit. I think you said everything and made sure everyone knows how moral you are and how evil I am. Can you stop yet?
 
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