Sax on the Web Forum banner
81 - 100 of 139 Posts

·
Distinguished SOTW Member
Joined
·
13,547 Posts
At the risk of repeating myself: cCoth ligs run a high risk of not sealing. I threw mine away after remaking mouthpieces because they didnt seal. I assumed when I tested them it was annerror on my part. Then I grsbbed a basic two scre lig...barrly tightened it and the reed sealed like crazy. Needless to say I was perturbed having wasted time and energy fixing a perfectly good mouthpiece. I suppose they work in an emergency when nothing else fits but Id rather use a 2 dollar lig that comes with a babbitt piece.
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member
selmer 26 nino, 22 curved sop, super alto, King Super 20 and Martin tenors, Stowasser tartogatos
Joined
·
3,402 Posts
At the risk of repeating myself: cCoth ligs run a high risk of not sealing. I threw mine away after remaking mouthpieces because they didnt seal. I assumed when I tested them it was annerror on my part. Then I grsbbed a basic two scre lig...barrly tightened it and the reed sealed like crazy. Needless to say I was perturbed having wasted time and energy fixing a perfectly good mouthpiece. I suppose they work in an emergency when nothing else fits but Id rather use a 2 dollar lig that comes with a babbitt piece.
I wonder what defect in the design causes a tightened lig to not seal, when all it needs to do is to hold the reed against the table with a very modest pressure.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,564 Posts
I wonder what defect in the design causes a tightened lig to not seal, when all it needs to do is to hold the reed against the table with a very modest pressure.
With the Rovner, there two defects. One, the single screw. Unless the shape of the ligature EXACTLY matches that of the mouthpiece, either the front or back will be looser. Two, the flexible cloth allows the reed to lift slightly while playing, which causes a leak at the base of the window. If the lig happens to be looser in front, this effect is exacerbated.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,832 Posts
With the Rovner, there two defects. One, the single screw. Unless the shape of the ligature EXACTLY matches that of the mouthpiece, either the front or back will be looser. Two, the flexible cloth allows the reed to lift slightly while playing, which causes a leak at the base of the window. If the lig happens to be looser in front, this effect is exacerbated.
Actually, the two bars pivot slightly to accommodate variation in the taper of the mouthpiece. Within reason, of course. That's why they sell several different sizes, and it's always possible that your particular piece cannot be fitted with a Rovner (for example, my old Runyon Custom alto piece is SO tapered that nothing but the original crappy Runyon plastic ligature will fit it).

I've never seen this phenomenon of the reed "lifting slightly while playing" mysefl (it would certainly be visible by water running down between the back of the reed and the mouthpiece table) on a reed with a flat back. I think many people underestimate just how much out of flat reeds can get, and they think rubbing the back of the reed a bit on some 600 grit paper will get them flat. Plus, if you're not careful, the sandpaper method can just reduce the thickness without making the back of the reed flat. On baritone reeds I commonly see 0.5 mm or more out of flat. The only way you're going to reliably get that surface flat is by scraping, and frequently checking it with a straightedge.

But what do I know, I've only been using the Rovner ligature since 1978...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,564 Posts
Actually, the two bars pivot slightly to accommodate variation in the taper of the mouthpiece. Within reason, of course. That's why they sell several different sizes, and it's always possible that your particular piece cannot be fitted with a Rovner (for example, my old Runyon Custom alto piece is SO tapered that nothing but the original crappy Runyon plastic ligature will fit it).

I've never seen this phenomenon of the reed "lifting slightly while playing" mysefl (it would certainly be visible by water running down between the back of the reed and the mouthpiece table) on a reed with a flat back. I think many people underestimate just how much out of flat reeds can get, and they think rubbing the back of the reed a bit on some 600 grit paper will get them flat. Plus, if you're not careful, the sandpaper method can just reduce the thickness without making the back of the reed flat. On baritone reeds I commonly see 0.5 mm or more out of flat. The only way you're going to reliably get that surface flat is by scraping, and frequently checking it with a straightedge.

But what do I know, I've only been using the Rovner ligature since 1978...
I haven't been using them quite that long. Or more precisely, trying them out...only since about 1990 or so... I understand that the bars are supposed to pivot a bit, and in fact they do, but when I was trying them (understand, this is a Rovner Light and a standard one, from the '90's), I had the same problem with both. I was using a reed that sealed fine - I could hold it to the table with my thumb and make it pop, after a delay of 5-10 seconds. And yet, when playing with those ligatures, I saw water on the table and reed, underneath the window. When I used my standard Bonade ligature, this did not happen. I do NOT crank the screws hard.

That's why I don't like fabric ligatures in general, and the Rovner single screw design in particular. It may be that with an added plate, the reed will seal properly, but I never bought one of those Eddie Daniels / Versa / whatever ligature to try - I'm perfectly happy with my Bonade inverted two-screw.
 

·
Moderator
Grafton + TH & C alto || Naked Lady 10M || TT soprano || Martin Comm III
Joined
·
30,102 Posts
With the Rovner, there two defects. One, the single screw. Unless the shape of the ligature EXACTLY matches that of the mouthpiece, either the front or back will be looser. T
I think this depends on which Rovner and whether it is maintained. For example the Star is the one I recommend for my mouthpieces which have quite a pronounced taper. The design of the star with single screw and mteal bars against the reed allows perfect forming to the taper, unlike many two screws.
Two, the flexible cloth allows the reed to lift slightly while playing, which causes a leak at the base of the window.
Not if you tighten it enough and make sure it is properly lubricated as advised in the "instruction manual"

The actual flexibility or elasticity of the cloth often fools you into thinking it is tight enough when it isn't.
 

·
Registered
Tenor, alto, Bb Clarinet, Flute
Joined
·
2,531 Posts
So when you feel the horn vibrating, is it a particular part of the horn?
Speaking for myself, I feel a pretty strong vibration in the first three fingers on my right hand when I play a low C, B or Bb. It's right in the tips of my fingers. I only notice it at first then once I'm warmed up and playing something the mind filters it out. It's similar to the sensation of touching the side of a blender or similar device that has an electric motor, like a drill or a side grinder. You can feel it vibrating in the fingertips. It's definitely not as strong on a sax as it is in the electric motor devices I described but it's not one of those things where it's almost non-detectable. It's very noticeable.
 

·
Moderator
Grafton + TH & C alto || Naked Lady 10M || TT soprano || Martin Comm III
Joined
·
30,102 Posts
Well, could we dig a little deeper here?
If a friend or student is playing saxophone in front of you, and you touch the side of the pearl next to their finger for a depressed key, you feel nothing?
Correct. I also feel nothing at the base (the handle end, aka the end of the "fork handle ;) ) of a vibrating tuning fork. I can feel the vibrating just above the base, ie the single stem of the tuning fork - but not the very bottom bit. Nada, zero, zilch, nichts, kahore, nul vibrazione

There is no doubt that the part is vibrating. So if you don't feel it, and do not have a paresthesia due to say vitamin B12 deficiency (lack of perception of a vibrating tuning fork is a sensitive test for this condition, also known as pernicious anemia), then your perception is simply different than others.
I imagine that is the case.

It's definitely not as strong on a sax as it is in the electric motor devices I described but it's not one of those things where it's almost non-detectable. It's very noticeable.
I do not dispute that, I'm sure it's just that we are all different.
 

·
Registered
Tenor, alto, Bb Clarinet, Flute
Joined
·
2,531 Posts
- i.e. the bit with the pad.The lever that operates it is separate. The F# bar ensures it keeps closed. If it isn't adjusted properly so
Correct. I also feel nothing at the base (the handle end, aka the end of the "fork handle ;) ) of a vibrating tuning fork. I can feel the vibrating just above the base, ie the single stem of the tuning fork - but not the very bottom bit. Nada, zero, zilch, nichts, kahore, nul vibrazione

I imagine that is the case.

I do not dispute that, I'm sure it's just that we are all different.
Obviously so. I just tried to describe it as carefully as I could in case you were looking for something different. What I describe is in my fingertips as they rest on the pearls. I'm not talking about vibration in the body of the horn. I don't think I've ever noticed anything like that. Same with the buzzy "thrill" Milandro mentioned. It's not something I remember feeling.

I have a guitar hanging on a hook on the wall next to where I practice and when I hit certain notes certain strings vibrate in sympathy. I believe they ring an octave higher than the note I sound on my horn but I'd have to experiment a little to confirm that. I believe it's the high E string or maybe the B string that sings out on occasion but like I said, I'd have to confirm that.
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member
selmer 26 nino, 22 curved sop, super alto, King Super 20 and Martin tenors, Stowasser tartogatos
Joined
·
3,402 Posts
Speaking for myself, I feel a pretty strong vibration in the first three fingers on my right hand when I play a low C, B or Bb. It's right in the tips of my fingers. I only notice it at first then once I'm warmed up and playing something the mind filters it out. It's similar to the sensation of touching the side of a blender or similar device that has an electric motor, like a drill or a side grinder. You can feel it vibrating in the fingertips. It's definitely not as strong on a sax as it is in the electric motor devices I described but it's not one of those things where it's almost non-detectable. It's very noticeable.
Obviously so. I just tried to describe it as carefully as I could in case you were looking for something different. What I describe is in my fingertips as they rest on the pearls. I'm not talking about vibration in the body of the horn. I don't think I've ever noticed anything like that. Same with the buzzy "thrill" Milandro mentioned. It's not something I remember feeling.

I have a guitar hanging on a hook on the wall next to where I practice and when I hit certain notes certain strings vibrate in sympathy. I believe they ring an octave higher than the note I sound on my horn but I'd have to experiment a little to confirm that. I believe it's the high E string or maybe the B string that sings out on occasion but like I said, I'd have to confirm that.
There is definitely perceptible vibration of the keys at pressure antinodes inside the sax body. It is a fair amount of pressure variation at those points, which, by the way, shift up and down the tube as you play different notes.

Any sounded note contains a whole slew of partials at varying intensities, and the energy any partial, if it is strong enough, can set up sympathetic vibrations at that frequency. Generally speaking you will get the strongest sympathetic vibrations in a string tuned to the fundamental, less for a string tuned to the octave and even less for a string tuned to the 12th, following the relative energies of the first, second and third partials.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
275 Posts
I think this depends on which Rovner and whether it is maintained. For example the Star is the one I recommend for my mouthpieces which have quite a pronounced taper. The design of the star with single screw and mteal bars against the reed allows perfect forming to the taper, unlike many two screws.

Not if you tighten it enough and make sure it is properly lubricated as advised in the "instruction manual"

The actual flexibility or elasticity of the cloth often fools you into thinking it is tight enough when it isn't.
Correct. I also feel nothing at the base (the handle end, aka the end of the "fork handle ;) ) of a vibrating tuning fork. I can feel the vibrating just above the base, ie the single stem of the tuning fork - but not the very bottom bit. Nada, zero, zilch, nichts, kahore, nul vibrazione

I imagine that is the case.

I do not dispute that, I'm sure it's just that we are all different.
Interesting. I believe you, but have a totally different experience. I can feel the horn vibrating through the pearls/fingertips or if I touch the neck while playing (haven't tried touching other parts of the body tube). My wife and mother also could feel the vibrations when I had them press a key while playing. I wonder what accounts for the different perceptions. In my case the sensation is very clear and definite, even though it's relatively subtle.
 

·
Moderator
Grafton + TH & C alto || Naked Lady 10M || TT soprano || Martin Comm III
Joined
·
30,102 Posts
In my case the sensation is very clear and definite, even though it's relatively subtle.
That's exactly how it has been when I have felt vibrations, but as I said above somewhere, when that happened I assumed there must be something wrong with the horn. That was indeed the case with my Martin - I found it rather unsettling, and my tech fixed the vibration.

But we could well be talking about different things.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,832 Posts
And just to be clear, everyone, keep in mind that for each different note on the sax, the pressure nodes and antinodes are in different places. So there's no way you can say that hanging a piece of metal off one location can "affect pressure nodes" - only if you only ever play one note.
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru
Joined
·
41,688 Posts
unfortunately, for those who make the metal vibrating argument, the saxophone is not a percussive instrument, so it is not a bell or a triangle, the fact that they “ sound “ different ( a variation of a “ thud” in height ) bears no consequences at all on the sound of the saxophone which is determined by the the reed vibrating putting the air column in motion.

The vibrations of the saxophone are imperceptible with an amplitude absolutely insignificant compared to the one of the air column which makes the sound.

I have said this time and time again.

EVEN IF one assumes the metal bears some significance remember that we hold the saxophone with two hands (the way one dampens the sound of a bell or triangle) , have the mouthpiece in our mouth and most of the times the body touches the body of the saxophone.

ALL of which would take more than amply care of any sympathetic vibration, of any minute significance, making the argument of the metal vibrating void of any substance.



 

·
Registered
Keilwerth saxes (S/A/T), Selmer clarinets (S/B), Altus Azumi flute
Joined
·
2,029 Posts
Take a pencil or some wooden stick and hit (tap) a bell of a saxophone - preferably from the inside, and lightly so that you do not dent it, in the same spot with the same force. Compare multiple saxophones. They all will sound different depending on what material are they made from, how they were mechanically and thermally worked while being manufactured, or even if they suffered some injury and have been worked on in repairs later.
Yes. It is undoubtedly true that, when played as a percussion instrument, the material a saxophone is made from can make a huge difference in sound.

The difference in density and other mechanical properties (affecting vibrations of the instrument body) of the material the instrument is made of are given, and physics simply works!
There's actually a lot of work on the physics of this (the field is called acoustics) and it overwhelmingly suggests that the influence of wall material has only a negligible (and inaudible) effect on the sound produced by a woodwind instrument (i.e., when used as intended and not as a percussion instrument).

If you believe that you perceive a difference, that's fine. Just be aware that the physics don't align with your beliefs.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
My post needs to be approved by a moderator first, I used one suspitious word in it.

Tapping a part of the instrument makes it reveal its natural resonance frequencies.

Saxophone body exited by a sound at its resonant frequency WILL make the saxophone resonate. This is AUDIBLE.

Saxophones WILL SOUND DIFFERENT depending on what material are they made from and how they were mechanically and thermally worked while being manufactured.

Student saxophones are made with bodies with thinner walls, because they RESONATE EASIER and help beginners with sound production. Advanced players consider student saxophones to be very bright and uncontrollable - they play TOO MUCH BY THEMSELVES and are not much capable to express any input from the player. These resonances must be tamed by making the bodies with thicker wall, or even putting keywork ribs on them.

We could conclude, that thickness of walls affects primarilly AMOUNT OF RESONANCE and material, mechanical and thermal treatment affects mainly SOUND COLOUR.

As I already mentioned, some people may have difficulty hearing differences in sound colour because their hearing impairment caused by playing very loud instruments.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
I cannot watch the video now, but flutes have negligible body surface area compared to saxophones. They are also thin stiff tubes. I can imagine that hearing the difference in sound colour caused by the things I mentioned can be much more difficult from flutes for these reasons.
 

·
Registered
Keilwerth saxes (S/A/T), Selmer clarinets (S/B), Altus Azumi flute
Joined
·
2,029 Posts
Saxophones WILL SOUND DIFFERENT depending on what material are they made from and how they were mechanically and thermally worked while being manufactured.
[CITATION NEEDED]

Student saxophones are made with bodies with thinner walls, because they RESONATE EASIER and help beginners with sound production.
[CITATION NEEDED]

We could conclude, that thickness of walls affects primarilly AMOUNT OF RESONANCE and material, mechanical and thermal treatment affects mainly SOUND COLOUR.
[CITATION NEEDED]

As I already mentioned, some people may have difficulty hearing differences in sound colour because their hearing impairment caused by playing very loud instruments.
This is just standard-issue "Emperor's New Clothes" stuff. E.g., "I believe this [unsupported] difference exists, and if you can't hear it, it's because your hearing is not as exquisitely sensitive as mine."
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,832 Posts
...

Tapping a part of the instrument makes it reveal its natural resonance frequencies.

Saxophone body exited by a sound at its resonant frequency WILL make the saxophone resonate. This is AUDIBLE....

<snipped out a bunch of similar unsupported statements>
...
Saying something with CAPITAL LETTERS doesn't make it true. Provide data, please.

In God we trust; all others bring data.

[whereupon data will not be forthcoming, because the data don't exist...]
 
81 - 100 of 139 Posts
Top