[John S]

My local luthier asked me to look at a Imperial Band Instruments bari for my opinion. It is in pretty good, playable shape. Sounded low Bb without a problem. Looks like the owner took care of it and played it, then it put it away in it's case for years. The serial number is P24507. There is a B above it and a L below. I've only been able to find general info on the company so far, and no info on it's value as a saxophone. I kind of want it to be worth very little, so I can buy it and learn how to restore it, but I also need to give the owner an accurate idea of it's value as it is on consignment. It does have two mouthpieces with it.

Thanks in advance- John

 

[lydian]

Looks like a Conn stencil from the 20's. Imperial was probably a music store that had their name put on the horn. Not much else to go on from that one pic. Could be $500-$1500 depending on condition. How are the pads, case, finish? Any major dents or missing parts? Is the G# key like a nail file or smooth?

The "B" means Bass on a Conn, not bari, in which case it could be worth $10,000. So more pics are definitely needed. Does it look like this one?
https://quinn-the-eskimo-vintage-ho...ne-in-lacquer-with-rolled-tone-holes/14760902

Also, I see a screw about to fall out.

EDIT: "P" means 1971 for Conn. So if it is a Conn, I'm way off on the date. But I thought they had stopped using L/H and the patent stamp by then. This is a quite a guessing game with no pictures.

EDIT: I found some old Conn baris marked "B", so never mind about it being a bass.

EDIT: After some more research, the "P" actually means a stencil horn and that you need to add 50000 to the serial to get the vintage. That would put this horn around 1921 unless that G# key says otherwise.

 

[milandro]

does it have an octave pip on the neck but the key is on the body? Does it go only up to Eb?

 

[turf3]

?

The "B" means Bass on a Conn, not bari,....

Actually sometimes baritones are marked "E" for Eb and sometimes they're marked "B" for Baritone. The proportions of the pads and the tube in this one photo look totally baritone-like, not bass-like.

OP, I think you've got a pretty good horn there, but I wouldn't go for it unless it's keyed to high F.

The SN and style of stamping indicate an older horn, but there are some other details that make me wonder if this isn't a horn from the 50s or 60s with serial number that doesn't follow the usual Conn pattern. Who's got it for sale, and are there any other photos?

 

[John S]

Thanks for the replies! I didn't see the screw until I looked at the pics. Made me cringe a little. It does have the octave pip on the neck and the key is on the sax.

I have more pics, but I am having trouble managing them. I will post them later when I figure it out.

 

[turf3]

OK, well if the key (with pad) is on the body and the pip is on the neck, then that's a private label stencil of a Conn New Wonder 1, from (approx.) the 1920s.

Its utility in the modern world will depend on whether it's keyed to high F or high Eb.

The deal of having the pad on one part and the pip on another basically means no matter what you do the upper octave vent will always leak just a bit. That said there's no reason on earth why a little cut-and-paste couldn't give you a little teeny key on the neck actuated by the stub of what used to carry the octave vent's pad.

If it's keyed to high F, then a little more money spent could give you a front F key.

 

[JayeLID]

dubbble post

 

[JayeLID]

actually.....P serial # = Pan American, which was, as others have posited, a Conn brand. So, yeah, basically an old Conn.

Now oddly, while MOST PanAms have P serials, some do not, but they still go by their serial sequence...which member Badenia actually did extensive research on a few years ago and produced a spreadsheet of PanAm serial #'s (I have it if anyone would like it). But stylistically, opp side bellkeys and all ...everyone has the date range fairly correct....

If pip is on SIDE of neck that is an achilles heel, both market-value wise and practically speaking....I mean, it is workable, but neck angle adjustment is limited and this knocks value down quite a bit....

Larger issue is whether it is keyed up to F, as Turf notes....

(btw...1970-early 1980's Conn serials all began with an N...)

 

[lydian]

actually.....P serial # = Pan American, which was, as others have posited, a Conn brand. So, yeah, basically an old Conn.

This guy thinks "P = Pan American theory" has been proved incorrect:
http://www.saxpics.com/conn/docs/numbers.htm

Other sources indicate there was a P series in 1971 only, N starting in 1972. So who knows. But the markings on this horn look much older than that.

 

[milandro]

OK, well if the key (with pad) is on the body and the pip is on the neck, then that's a private label stencil of a Conn New Wonder 1, from (approx.) the 1920s.

Its utility in the modern world will depend on whether it's keyed to high F or high Eb.

The deal of having the pad on one part and the pip on another basically means no matter what you do the upper octave vent will always leak just a bit. That said there's no reason on earth why a little cut-and-paste couldn't give you a little teeny key on the neck actuated by the stub of what used to carry the octave vent's pad.

If it's keyed to high F, then a little more money spent could give you a front F key.

This can be also another Model, like the Wonder Improved , I had one keyed to Eb.

They are nice horns but not the easiest tuning , if keyed to high Eb its use is relative, certainly works in a setting where the baritone doen't play the main role in the band but its value is greatly diminished

 

[John S]

Here are a few more pictures.

Sorry about the sideways pics. I will shoot better ones if the owner wants me to post an add for it here.

-John

 

[milandro]

So it is certainly a Baritone , I can’t see if it gets only to EB but I bet it does.It looks very similar to my Wonder Improved. I think it is the same type of horn.

These old Conns used to be of limited value ( you could get one for about €500) but I see now asking prices picking up , I don’t really understand why.

The octave pip arrangement limits the possibility to orientate to neck to fit one’s playing position and that would be a problem to many players ( Unless you hold the sax perfectly in front of you)

In principle it is possible to fabricate and add the F key and the quick F ( at a cost) but it would cost so much money that I am not sure makes sense. They are mouthpiece picky and perform well with large pickle or barrel mouthpieces.

 

[Grumps]

I have a New Wonder Conn bari that this one was based on. Keyed from low Bb to high Eb, no rolled toneholes and the poorly designed octave mechanism. It's a great bar horn; lightweight and nimble with all the Conn bark and bite that a bari should have. But yeah, you'll need either an older styled, large chambered mouthpiece for it not to play overly sharp (and the midrange will be sharp regardless compared to the rest of the range) or one with an extended shank. So if you just want to mess around on bari, or you lead a combo or want to play it in a rock band, it can be a frugal choice. What it would not be ideal for would be for concert/stage/jazz band ensemble work.

 

[turf3]

Pretty sure it only goes to Eb.

Condition looks pretty nice, honestly. If you could pick it up for say $300 you could use it in a lot of applications. I wouldn't pay anything like what it would cost if keyed to high F.

 

[lydian]

I agree this is closer to the $500 end of the spectrum, maybe $700 if you’re lucky.

 

[JayeLID]

This guy thinks "P = Pan American theory" has been proved incorrect:
http://www.saxpics.com/conn/docs/numbers.htm

Other sources indicate there was a P series in 1971 only, N starting in 1972. So who knows. But the markings on this horn look much older than that.

~ Saxpics was sold a long, long time ago and has not been updated since. Pete Hales took a good shot at a good database, but it was an early shot and much on the site has been, in subsequent decades, proven inaccurate.

Contact member Stocker or Badenia here....they both have done extensive recording of Conn and Pan Am serial numbers. Badenia's research was extensive, and he even got Dr. Derkson (of Conn Loyalist) on board. Stocker's list is impressive. I can also send you a list of the Conn numbers that Stocker sent to me, and which I added to. It clearly supports that it was impossible for N to signify one year, or even a few years.

~ Nobody to date has ever SHOWN a Conn sax with a letter prefix beyond N....no image has ever been provided.

~ Also, the N serials went from 4-digit all the way up and over the 200,000's....impossible for Conn Mexico to have produced that many horns in a single year, or two, or five....when the output of saxes at Conn has been estimated to have been somewhere between 12,000-15,000/year.

~ The following Alto models all have N prefixes: 50M, 6M, 7M, 18M, 20M, 21M....how likely is it that Conn actually was producing 6 different models of Alto within the same 1, 2 or 3 year period ? 4 of them substantially different design ?

The problem is, old data, inaccurate data, when left accessible online....can still rule the day. But it's quite incorrect. Other folks have put in a lot of effort to investigate and compile info on this stuff...unfortunately, those folks don't get the number of clicks Saxpics or Dr. Rick does - and neither of those sites have any interest in revising/updating, sadly.

 

[JayeLID]

Here are a few more pictures.
View attachment 262812
View attachment 262814
View attachment 262816
View attachment 262818

Sorry about the sideways pics. I will shoot better ones if the owner wants me to post an add for it here.

-John

Shot of the upper bow, from the audience perspective, please....to determine high F or not (or just tell us whether it has 3 side touches or two)

 

[JayeLID]

I agree this is closer to the $500 end of the spectrum, maybe $700 if you're lucky.

If no high F yes, something like that.....if needing work ? $300-500.

These cannot fetch more than $750, well-serviced and playing up and down....

 

[JayeLID]

So if you just want to mess around on bari, or you lead a combo or want to play it in a rock band, it can be a frugal choice. What it would not be ideal for would be for concert/stage/jazz band ensemble work.

Basically what he said

 

[John S]

Sorry about the pics, I wasn't looking for much more than the name and serial number when I took them. It is an Eb, with only two side touches.