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Ok. Everyone talks about these ii V7 I patterns, so I figured I would look in the omnibook for some so I could steal some licks, and I couldn't find a definate form. Some have the ii and V7 in the same measure and some have them separate. Is there a set form, ro do I just have to memorize stuff for multiple progressions? Also, most of the I chords are I7s. Is this a problem?

Thanks.
 

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There are "short" and "long" ii-V's. The "short" version is where they're both in the same measure, each lasting 2 beats. The "long" version lasts for 2 measures with each chord lasting one measure. These usually (but not always) resolve to a I chord in the next measure.

Both versions are important. But when people say ii-V, more often than not it's the "long" version.

If you learn a ii-V7 that resolves to a I7 instead of a IMaj7 (as in the last 4 bars of the blues), that's fine. Just be sure to adjust and modify it if emphasizes the b7 and you're trying to use it over a Maj7 chord.
 

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Martinman, you'll find them in the same measure, and you'll find them in two measure harmonic phrases. And you'll also find them differently. ii-7/V7s will be all over the place and they'll also usually modulate when they start getting bored. :D

If you are looking for licks to play over ii/Vs just take the licks you like, knowing what you've just discovered, i.e. some of the chords move every two beats, some four beats. BTW now might be a good time to start looking into some theory books or online help.

(looks like agent27 and I were typing at the same time)
 

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SaxyAcoustician said:
Hmmm... They're all over the place in the Omnibook.
True enough, but lets try to help Martinman out.

Martinman,

Most of the time you'll have the ii V7 I at the rate of one bar apiece.

Often though, the same sequence will be "squashed" in time, so that the ii and V7 are crammed into one bar. Same sequence, just condensed.

The I chord you see as a I7 in the Omnibook, I'm guessing, is probably on one of the many blues tunes in there.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Well, as you said, these things are all over the omnibook, both in blues (typically in the second 4 bar phrase, the first chord is the ii, then comes the V7 the next measure, then the I7 for the remaining two measures) and in other songs where it is not a blues progression.

So I basically just need to learn licks for both types or just one type and extend or truncate them depending on the situation. I can do that.

So Gary, what kind of theory books or online help am I looking for in particular? I don't want to google and come up with a bunch of random internet junk that could be wrong. I have the Complete Idiot's Guide to Solos and Improvisation, but it is scarce in this department (it is really only useful for the massive scale and chord syllabus).
 

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Martin,

For theory, as a reference book to keep going back to, Mark Levine's "Jazz Theory Book" is very popular.

Ideally though, you (and I) are aiming at being able to use the info in all these theory books. Rather than just having a mental understanding, we want to be able to hear the ii V7 I progression and have the facility and vocabulary to improvise over it.

(I've got Coltrane playing "Russian Lullaby" in the background as I type this, so I may just give up and sell insurance instead. :( )

With the goal of actually playing in mind, I'd suggest the following.


"The Goal Note Method." by Shelton Berg.

Gary laid this one on me a while back and it's great. A methodical approach, that drills fundamentals and gets you playing, as well as understanding the theory. Seemingly simple, but if you do the homework, each chapter can take a long while to get under your fingers in all keys. Great play along tracks too and the etudes are based on blues, rhythm changes and standards.

For ii V7 I lines, you can, of course transcribe as Gary suggested. As well,you can grab some great free stuff from

Tim Price, http://www.timpricejazz.com/lessons/index.html

or, for very little $

Steve Neff, http://www.neffmusic.com/cms/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=68&Itemid=88888909

As I keep reminding myself, the main thing is to make haste slowly. Pick a solo, exercise, etude, that contains some nice ii V7 lines and shed it until you've got it down cold. Then shed it for another 6 months until you've got it down to the point where you can actually use it. :D

It ain't easy, and it feels like work, but at least you don't have to spend the first half hour of each practice session noodling around, wondering what to shed. There's an upside to grunt work.
 

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yes, I struggled with this stuff, too. STEVE NEFF's patterns were very, very helpful. Worth the money and you'll have countless hours of decent stuff to work with. DEFINITELY get your hands on them.
 

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Well, I am in college so I am going to opt for Tim Price's stuff.

The Sal Nestico stuff looks promising. I will give that and a healthy dose of Charlie Parker a shot.
 

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Cheapest route for patterns is from stuff you already own -- CDs of your favorite players, the Real Book, etc. From the Real Book (or Omnibook) you can read through the bebop tunes and copy a lot of the 'licks' and transpose them and practice them ... You can get the same thing from recordings.

The important part here is to find language that means something to you. You can find 1000s of patterns, but your own aesthetic will pick out the things you like and want to make part of your own language. What I am trying to say is, it works a lot better if you go out and find for yourself these patterns in music that you like, rather than from a pattern book or something.
 
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