[Threeleggedyoyo]

Just bought a hidden gem on ebay that fit my budget... buried deep in the description is the fact that it does indeed play. Way stoked. In the meantime, wanted to get a positive ID on it.

It's a Wurlitzer, and I'm pretty certain it's an undercover Buescher. But which model? Serial number on it is 36267. Pics are here:

http://www.auctiva.com/hostedimages...,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0&format=0

I'm pretty sure it's a True Tone, but the saxgourmet guide here says the serial number is too high for that. That number would indicate an early 400 series, but it doesn't seem to have those features, like the underslung octave key. Hmm.

Thought I'd post and see what you guys think. I'm just stoked to have found something I can afford that isn't a Bundy.

http://www.saxgourmet.com/VINTAGE_SAXOPHONE_VALUE_GUIDE.htm

 

[Grumps]

Stencil serial numbers do not match those of first line horns. What you picked up appears to be a Martin stencil based on a design from the late teens to early 20's. The tone holes are soldered and many appear to have been worked on, if not actually replaced. Over time... and there's been some... they're prone to leaks which are difficult to find and expensive to fix. The horn is only keyed up to Eb3, does not have pearl keys and the pads do not look to be in great shape. Private sellers who list online nearly always claim that their saxophones are in playing condition, but that's rarely the case. Most savvy ebayers here know to include the price of an overhaul into their calculations prior to bidding on or purchasing such horns sight unseen; and for baritone saxophones this can be rather expensive. If this horn is in playing condition, you would truly be lucky.

 

[BOPITY FUNK]

Grumps is right---in this instance LOL! Looks more like a 'project' horn to me--- and if it's high pitch then dont even consider it. That horn will never play 'as is in' a million years!
Hard to say who actually made it but, really even if it was a Selmer or Conn or a 'big name' it's still in dire need of much cash being spent to make it playable.

 

[Grumps]

... and if it's high pitch then dont even consider it.

American stencils in high pitch were incredibly rare. And as this horn looks as if it's been played, I seriously doubt that's even a possibility. Still... a Bundy would have been a better buy.

Best to ask questions of others before bidding.

 

[Grumps]

I found the listing. Seller states it's marked "low pitch", but he also says he's a drummer, not a horn player, so he's not the best one to be judging pad condition. The seller also says the horn will need the keys checked and "overhauled", so he's going to be protected when the buyer finds out the horn will need serious work. Wish he photographed the serial number. Though the seller is nearly certain the horn is a Buescher, the serial number would have to be arched to even make that assumption. There's no rooster bow guard, as a Buescher might have, and at least some of the tone holes are beveled and all soldered, which to me would indicate a Martin.

 

[Threeleggedyoyo]

I asked him more questions about the fellow he had play it. He indicated that the keys seemed to be working and there was no problem getting a good sound out of it.

If this turns out to be incorrect I'll just put it back up on eBay. If it's right then I have a sax to play.

 

[soybean]

Private sellers who list online nearly always claim that their saxophones are in playing condition, but that's rarely the case.

That is so true and a good warning for anyone shopping on ebay. I usually ask something like, "Has a sax player played this and tested it to make sure that all the notes and keys work?" Then the usual reply is, "No. and we are not experts". Haha. No kidding.

 

[KeithL]

. I'm just stoked to have found something I can afford that isn't a Bundy.

.... and this near 100 year old eclectic piece of Americana in highly questionable condition with relacquered or unmatched neck is better than a Bundy because......

 

[Grumps]

Oh yeah Keith... that reminds me of another point in regard to these old horns and the ad copy. Originally, they weren't lacquered.

 

[Threeleggedyoyo]

Well, time for a follow-up.

Sax arrived today after holiday shipping difficulties. Because of this and his frustration with the runaround UPS gave him, I was awarded a full refund. Regardless of the wisdom of the initial buy... at this point you can't beat that.

It smells like grandpa juice, but for those of you who said it wouldn't play... you're mostly wrong. It actually plays pretty well. The action is a bit high and the keywork is ancient, but the notes all sound without trouble.

The pads are definitely old, but seem to function fine. The only note I'm having trouble with at this point is a little touchiness with the low E, which I'm guessing this has to do with the peripheral E opening, which has a pad that's a bit marshmellowy. I'm also using a new mouthpiece that is quite different than my old one and which may also account for some difficulties (it is the first piece I've owned since I played bari in high school).

Unfortunately the low C pad is straight up missing, which is the only thing I'd say amounts to a lack of full disclosure here. Local repair shop replaces pads for $15, so that's not so bad.

As for the serial number, it is 36267 with printed in an arc. I understand that should tell us for sure whether it's a Martin or Beuscher, no? It once had a mother-of-pearl G# key as well which is supposed to indicate Beuscher... but the soldered tone holes had lead me to believe Martin... go figure. Actually as I look at the fingers spots, I'm not sure there ever was mother of pearl coverings at all.

Well, that's it. Even without the refund I'd say this was pretty much as advertised. Needs a few adjustments, but the thing plays. For the nonbelievers... it's a Christmas miracle!

 

[Grumps]

Sax arrived today after holiday shipping difficulties. Because of this and his frustration with the runaround UPS gave him, I was awarded a full refund.

The full purchase price, or just the shipping?

The curved serial number and pearl G# key would be indicators for Buescher. Perhaps some sort of hybrid.

 

[Threeleggedyoyo]

Full purchase price and shipping too. I hope to send a bit back to him when all is said and done but I'm not obliged to. At this point the sax was entirely free.

Dropped it by the shop today and should hear from a repair guy in the next couple days. Hoping whatever leak is effecting the low E isn't too major. I would guess it's not since it doesn't render the note unplayable, just touchy. But time will tell. Basically putting the money I saved back into the horn.

Looking forward to trying the sax with another mouthpiece as well... playing it on a Rico Graftonite B5 which I've heard good things about. But I bought a C5 for my alto for kicks (can't beat $12) and can't say I'm too impressed so far. Obviously the two are very different, but of course this bari was made with a different sort of piece in mind and that might help it speak better (not to mention I am not sure if I like the piece myself).

As far as the pearl keys... like I said, I don't think this thing ever had pearl keys at all. But the G# is a round finger spot just like the others. I've heard there were a few Beuschers made with soldered tone holes... who knows. Rather mysterious.

Well, will report when I hear from the repair guy.

 

[69193]

Good luck with it. Yeah...opinions around here seem to be pretty hit or miss on the Rico Graftonites. I've got a B7 for my soprano that I like. I've also got one for my tenor (A3), that I don't really like. I upgraded from that pretty quickly to a J&D Hite (also pretty reasonable). Do some looking around the forum. You should be able to get a mouthpiece that you'll enjoy playing on for under $100.

 

[paulwl]

It smells like grandpa juice

What's that? Prune?

 

[Threeleggedyoyo]

What's that? Prune?

Whatever is the zombie equivalent of that, yeah.

 

[lhoffman]

Full purchase price and shipping too. I hope to send a bit back to him when all is said and done but I'm not obliged to. At this point the sax was entirely free.

So the seller is out a horn and his money? And you're OK with that?

 

[Jonathan C.]

So the seller is out a horn and his money? And you're OK with that?

I agree that is messed up, mark you down as a never sell to.

 

[Threeleggedyoyo]

I never said I was ok with that. The seller refunded the money without my asking when things went awry with the shipping. He was emphatic that this was something he wished to do out of principal even though I made it clear things were cool and I could wait...

I've been asking him what he wants back giving the circumstances (he said I could send a bit back his way if I liked the sax but wasn't very specific) but haven't heard back. In the meantime there's no sense in mindlessly bouncing money back and forth on Paypal just to lose it on transaction fees.

He mentioned that he's filed a complaint with UPS (long story short they were dishonest with him repeatedly) and that he might go to small claims over it. With that in mind he may not want any of the money back so that his numbers regarding damages stay the same. I've asked about this and haven't found out.

So yeah... odd situation. I'm not entirely sure what he wants at this point. Normally I pay up front for product and shipping and that's it. I never asked for any refunds. Please don't judge me.

 

[Jonathan C.]

My .02,
You should return the money. You got the horn, its a fair deal then.

 

[Threeleggedyoyo]

My .02,
You should return the money. You got the horn, its a fair deal then.

You're right and that's what happened. Heard from him the other day and he decided he wasn't taking the store to court afterall, so I just refunded it minus his desire to give me free shipping for the trouble.

Just got the horn back today from the repair guy. Not bad work for just $75 bucks. Replaced a couple pads and regulated it pretty well. She's playing good!

Going to need a new mouthpiece though. This Rico Graftonite doesn't particularly agree with it. Tried a few pieces with it at the store today... a Metalite, a Cannonball, a JX6, and another Rousseau... some played better than others but most presented intonation issues with the low register in varying amounts. I see why people get neck extensions now as pulling the piece out further helped. Wish they had more to try. The fact that this is not the original neck probably has to do with it as well.

At the moment the sax is playing nicely and in tune with the Graftonite now that I've figured out the right spot on the neck for it, but I don't like the feel of the mouthpiece as it seems to be very resistant to passages with a lot of tonguing. Tried a #4 reed on it too to see if that would be better... nope, much worse. Maybe I should look for something softer. Playing it with La Voz Mediums like I always have. Not sure what number that translates to.

Bought a Yamaha piece on eBay which is more like what I've always played on. Hopefully that will agree with it better.

But anyway. To those of you who said it would never play... not so. After just a few minor repairs it's great.

Only real complaint I'd have about the sax itself at this point is that the keywork is beyond bizarre! I don't mind that it's different, but the ergonimics of this thing are non existent. The register key, thumb hook, pinky trays and right hand palms are placed in bizarre places that make holding the sax more difficult than it should be. Nothing a bit of tinkering won't solve though.