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Indistinguishable Resident Buescher Bigot and Foru
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Do you suppose, if I found a very old high-pitched alto, and used a small chamber, high baffle piece on it, I could have such an animal.

Imagine playing with a rock guitar player and being able to play in the key of C. Or a tenor and being able to play in G!

Yes, I'm a little lazy. Might have to look into that.
 

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Indistinguishable Resident Buescher Bigot and Foru
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Not the same. I'm an acoustic kind of guy. :)
 

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maddenma, you be trippin' heavily, and that's a good thing... Have you tried sharping up on a 'plain' Eb alto yet? I just pay the guitar and bass guys to 'de-tune' down to Eb on rock jams... They don't care...
 

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Indistinguishable Resident Buescher Bigot and Foru
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
It's really just a random thought, expressed in a randomless way...
 

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the topic of using high pitch horns for playing in keys (AND PITCH) other than the intended one has been beaten to death many other times and anybody who has postulated that has, until now, failed to overcome all of the obvious problems. Anyway it it a relatively easy task to get yourself a HP Eb horn (I have seen and keep on seeing them regularly around here) with no commercial value (and hopefully needing no work or finding one which was unwittingly re-padded, as I had and sold to an antique dealers who uses as decoration) and try to do what I think is impossible and in so doing , if successful, gaining access to a market of useless and almost valueless horns.

Since I think that you would be waisting your time in doing that (time that could be used to learn to lay in less comfortable keys! ) I put to you that your alternative choices to the Bb and Eb horns, are F mezzo, Conn O Sax (if you can afford one), G mezzo, C melody.
 

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In a past life my first tenor was a HP Conn tenor. It worked well with 60's rock groups. More recently I have used my HP Conn C melody as a Db alto in a concert band setting with completely acceptable intonation! (Substitute Cor Anglais) I also have a HP Buffet alto from 1924 which can easily be pushed-up to an E alto pitch.
I must admit I've never tried it in a band setting but a good old Conn with a working micro-tuner could lead to hours of enjoyment in more user-friendly keys.
 

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then you have achieved what generations and generations of technicians could never do resulting in piles of instruments being thrown out or hanging on the walls of café's

I am not sure how does a rock guitar band qualifies for intonation (they would have tuned to your hight pitch) I would be interested in hearing some recorded material .......

The Buffet is only 442 Hz hardly the more common 456-7 Hz of most HP woodwinds.

If you haven't played an instrument together other instrument without variable pitch you don't really know how the HP instruments perform in a band context.

Once I bought a HP baritone ,the owner maintained that she had played 2 concerts with it with her concert band, to me that was impossible....... I have yet to hear examples, please make me change my mind, astonish me.........
 

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...More recently I have used my HP Conn C melody as a Db alto in a concert band setting with completely acceptable intonation! (Substitute Cor Anglais) ...
Lonniesax - If it works for you, well done... :bluewink:
 

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Thanks, Milandro for indirectly solving a mystery! My HP Buffet came with two necks - one original and one not! The original neck is spot-on A442.The other is nearly two cm. shorter and can be tuned a semitone higher. The octave pip is also further down the neck. Overall pitch is acceptable. I've come across other HP altos which are A456 and more easily tuned as an E alto. A drawer full of mouthpieces helps.
Some time ago I bought a LP 20's Buffet from cmelodysax and had it rebuilt. With the original neck it tunes to A435 but with a shortened Yamaha sings at A440.
I have seen somewhere reference to a mid-pitch Buffet alto. One tuned to A442 could qualify.
With reference to the HP tenor - it was 50 years ago! Young and keen. Guitar in E, sax in F, seemed a good way to go. Volume - high, and intonation - whats that?
 

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There are tons of information on pitch on previous threads here and although it can be , and it has been argued, that a player could play ( lipping notes up and down throughout the whole range !) there is no practical way to play a HP in another pitch but still with a A440 (somewhere on the horn) shortening the neck or lengthening the neck of a HP horn because the distance between the toneholes is as wrong as the total length . You can tune one note but all the rest will be off.

A 442 Hz. instrument has such a minimal variation that is easily accepted (and compensated) as to be ok together with 440Hz. Instrument. There is no way that you can play a 457 Hz instrument together with 440Hz. instruments and not notice it.

You can play a HP instrument with tuneable instruments (strings, synthesisers ) and people in countries as India, where pitch in traditional music is a less determined thing, are or were, known to play HP instruments.


Again, I 've yet to be amazed by someone who produces audio files of his or her playing of a HP instrument together with other non tuneable instruments. Please, if you have any audio video I would like to be astonished.:bluewink:
 

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hey Mark if you want an E buescher alto I can redirect you to a proffessional tech in utah.... :twisted: he's a master intonation solver.
 

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you need a master intonation messing-upper here...........
I have confidence in my Utah guy. He can screw the intonation of any instrument with his patent pending process of nick removing, sanding, replating and retapering.
 

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I haven't followed your latest exchange of reciprocal cannonades with the gentleman in question :) I am in no doubt though that it would be a thread entertaining for some. I have given up on these technical threads turning into the modern version of the medieval tournaments with the ritualistic display of muscles and testosterone across the continents.

Anyway there have been people before who maintained that they could modify a HP instrument to be played LP but I have yet to see and even better HEAR any of this. If anybody could come up with a solution to this non existing problem a new market for unplayable instrumets would suddenly be opened. Maybe the technician from the " Gran Lago Salado del Norte " will oblige and reveal his opinion on this!
 

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The trouble with the HP instruments in mixed use with modern 440 instruments is that the HP falls pretty much right in the middle between notes. Too sharp for use as an Eb, too flat for use as an E. The distance between toneholes means that, try as you will, it is pretty much a bootless endeavour.

You can adjust the bore on an HP clarinet to play pretty much in tune by reducing the internal diameter of the bore. For those who have an HP clarinet lying about- insert a wood dowel perhaps 3/16 inch in diameter up the length of the bore and play. Generally pretty close (and really stuffy).

I suppose one could make a similar adjustment with a long tapered insert ,(or a lot of putty! The bore would have to be proportionately reduced with a greater reduction as the cone grew larger), in the bore of a sax. The effect would be of academic interest only though- I doubt you'd make a decently playable instrument without far more trouble than it was worth.

Good luck in any case. I enjoy the high pitch instruments a cappella- same usage as the zaphoon except that the HP instruments actually sound good!
 

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Indistinguishable Resident Buescher Bigot and Foru
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I have confidence in my Utah guy. He can screw the intonation of any instrument with his patent pending process of nick removing, sanding, replating and retapering.
Juan,

We all know there are some issues here between you and JBTSax (and a few others). Does it have to invade every thread? :rolleyes:
 

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I haven't followed your latest exchange of reciprocal cannonades with the gentleman in question :) I am in no doubt though that it would be a thread entertaining for some. I have given up on these technical threads turning into the modern version of the medieval tournaments with the ritualistic display of muscles and testosterone across the continents....
Juan,
We all know there are some issues here between you and JBTSax (and a few others). Does it have to invade every thread? :rolleyes:
Sorry guys, I didn't realize that for people that never enters into pissing contests with other co-forum members here it might be troubling read. [/sarcasm] :twisted:

Now back to the original question, there's no way in wich a HP horn can be played in the half step up (HP Eb in E and so)

A=442 or even A=444 are not high pitch wich is way way above that. As someone noted here, the only way in wich an overall shorter instrument can be made to play LP is by altering the bore. On a clarinet is relatively simple, it needs to have less internal diameter (bore) on a saxophone, it needs less conicity angle wich is really tricky, not to mention, it does sounds stuffy and "off".

The only relative success I have had with HP to LP conversions was converting HP A clarinets to LP Bb clarinets, reaming the bore and doctoring up some tone holes and some tone holes location, and altering the joints lenght (shortening the lenght between the 1st and 2dn joints) but it's way too much work.

I suspect that if "perfect" intonation is not the goal, with shortened neck (enlargened port) and crescents you could make a HP alto or tenor play like an E alto or B tenor...
 

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Indistinguishable Resident Buescher Bigot and Foru
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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
You forgot the "[sarcasm]" header before cancelling it....

Anyway, the question had to do with converting a HP instrument in to one that plays a 1/4 step higher, not lower. :)
 
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