[FighterForJC]

I've bought a few Jamey Aebersold's throughout the last decade and most of them were purchased when I really had no clue. Now that I'm better and wiser I started integrating the Aebersolds and the Hal Leonards into my practice routine again, with some reasonable success considering everything. A couple of weeks ago I discovered that I had bought a Cannonball Adderley Aebersold (I almost bought it again like a couple of months prior not knowing that I already owned it) and last night I tried playing along. I took you guys's advice on these boards on how to approach the Aebersold. The general consesus from what I've read is that Aebersold's approach is not the best (the mindset of which scales go with the chords, etc). It was more of a very informal practice, I just wanted to play. I tried the "ear approach," not looking at the charts. Needless to say, I sounded like a total beginner. My wife said that I didn't sound like that, but she was just being nice. It was so frustrating, it seemed as though I couldn't even do the most basic articulations. I hated it. After I stopped, I played some smooth-jazz sounding licks to make myself feel better, and it helped.

 

[DanPerezSax]

If you CAN'T do the chord-scale approach, it's worth practicing it. It's not the ONLY thing you should learn, but it's a good way to start familiarizing yourself with the idiom and improvising over changes. If you don't have a teacher otherwise, you have nothing to lose by just studying the materials at hand!

 

[rleitch]

Hey there,

This might help you zero in on the Adderly thing:

http://www.milesosland.com/books.html#smcja

Look for the first free MP3 download from the Jazz Articulation section (eighth-note phrasing--track #2) and it corresponds with the PDF page #1 directly above.

Rory

 

[ratracer]

Needless to say, I sounded like a total beginner. My wife said that I didn't sound like that, but she was just being nice. It was so frustrating, it seemed as though I couldn't even do the most basic articulations. I hated it.

Welcome to the club. Been there, done that, still wearing the t-shirt. What took you so long to join us fellow wannabees?

btw, I already like your wife! Mine lies to me all the time telling me how wonderful I am and how good I sound on the sax! (but we know better, eh?)

 

[FighterForJC]

If you CAN'T do the chord-scale approach, it's worth practicing it. It's not the ONLY thing you should learn, but it's a good way to start familiarizing yourself with the idiom and improvising over changes. If you don't have a teacher otherwise, you have nothing to lose by just studying the materials at hand!

That's how I normally approach playing over Aebersold tracks. I wasn't blaming my "new" approach for the problem, or the old one for that matter. I think it's all mumbo jumbo, kinda like the "crane" technique in Karate Kid or the "wax on wax off." You can talk fighting forms all day long to great mma fighters like Rickson Gracie, Chuck Liddell, Fedor Emelianenko, Wanderlei Silva and I'm sure they can break down the proper techniques of striking and grappling, but those guys are all natural fighters that needed just some guidance in order to reach the level they're at. They have the right physical makeup and are wired for fighting. I'm beginning to discover that same thing with playing jazz, which is why I started the other thread "How long have you been as good as you are." I personally think that it gives one more glory to make his exceptional skills and talent seem attainable for everybody. But I think the fact is, great players have always been great from the get go. I can practice 8 hours a day and Charlie Parker will be 10x better than me even if he only practiced half an hour a week. It's no different from a short guy aspiring to be tall. It's in the genes and proper nutrition could only take you so far. My suggestion is for the Shaq's out there to stop trying to inspire the Mugsy Boggs's to eat their wheaties and just wake up one day being 7 feet tall.

 

[Mike Cesati]

Mr Fighter. I'm just curious how many Cannonball Adderly Records/Cd's do you have and are currently checking out to get the feel of that style?????

 

[Step Hen]

I may be misunderstanding you here - what's mma? - but isn't that all a bit defeatist, matey? I will never be a genius at what I do, but I'm certainly not going to stop practising until I'm the best I can be.

Are you a bit despondent at the moment? Is there anything any of us can do to help?

My wife told me recently that it's beginning to sound a bit better. Fewer squeaks.

 

[Nefertiti]

Remember: Practicing isn't to boost your self esteem, it's to work on something that you can't do. If your doing it right there will be times when you are frustrated, tired, fed up, anxious........ It's because you are trying to learn to do something you can't at this present time. It's all part of the program. Don't give up. Get determined. Picture an end result and set goals to get there. Break those goal s down into smaller goalas and then break those goals down into something you can work on today. remember to take joy in the process of traveling towards your goal and improving because frankly you'll never be good enough that you'll feel like you have arrived and are all set. At least I haven't. I've been playing for 30 years and still feel some of the stuff you felt the other day.

 

[FighterForJC]

Mr Fighter. I'm just curious how many Cannonball Adderly Records/Cd's do you have and are currently checking out to get the feel of that style?????

I have ZERO CD's of his. I'm not trying to emulate his style specifically, I'm just trying to improvise over some jazz tracks, regardless of who I end up sounding like. It's not just the "how" I'm struggling with, it's the "what." I'm slowly coming to terms that my brain simply does not have the processing power to play "real" jazz. All jazz players are some type of genius. Improvising over jazz chords is a different beast from training years to become a human tape player (playing classical music).

 

[JL]

Just out of curiosity, Fighter, how long have you been playing the sax? It takes a lot more time & effort to learn a musical instrument, and especially to play jazz, than most folks realize. That's the main reason there aren't more good to great players around. You have to stick with it through thick and thin. And definitely pick up some Cannonball Adderly cds. Not that you or anyone else can sound just like him, but more for the inspiration to play.

 

[FighterForJC]

Just out of curiosity, Fighter, how long have you been playing the sax? It takes a lot more time & effort to learn a musical instrument, and especially to play jazz, than most folks realize. That's the main reason there aren't more good to great players around. You have to stick with it through thick and thin. And definitely pick up some Cannonball Adderly cds. Not that you or anyone else can sound just like him, but more for the inspiration to play.

Counting the first day I blew my first notes out of my very first sax, I've been playing 19-20 years. But it's a hard thing to say, because I didn't really get formal instruction that really set in until 9 to 10 years ago. At any rate, I haven't put in all the practice that I should've, partly due to lack of discipline and partly due to lack of time.

P.S. to answer the other guy's question, "mma" stands for "mixed martial arts." You know, the UFC thing.

 

[Nefertiti]

Can I ask how much of that 9-10 years you studied with someone who taught jazz improvisation? Just curious.

 

[FighterForJC]

Can I ask how much of that 9-10 years you studied with someone who taught jazz improvisation? Just curious.

Actually none. I took a dozen or so lessons from Eric Marienthal but the lessons were focused 95% on technique and not the artistic. At the end of each lesson we would take solos over some pre-recorded tracks, but he never really gave me in-depth instruction on how to approach jazz soloing. A couple of times he gave tips that were really more correctional in nature. To be honest, I don't think improvisation at the highest level can be taught. I can solo over some groovy, R&B-ish smooth jazz stuff, and I can communicate clearly and precisely to a student what I'm doing. "Think blues scale and pentatonic scale throughout...on this part right here, try a melodic minor scale..." Straight ahead jazz can't be broken down that simply.

 

[EastCoastGhost]

Sounds like a good idea
If you don't have the courage and fortitude to look yourself in the mirror admit your weaknessess and keep trying then you should quit
Post your horns for sale mouthpieces too maybe i'll buy one

 

[FighterForJC]

Sounds like a good idea
If you don't have the courage and fortitude to look yourself in the mirror admit your weaknessess and keep trying then you should quit
Post your horns for sale mouthpieces too maybe i'll buy one

You know what, I wonder that. I recently bought a budget curved soprano and at the time I was deciding to buy either the sax or spend twice as much and get a bigger HDTV. I feel that I should've gone for the tv. And I don't know how much more "courage and fortitude" I would need to admit my weaknesses if I've already straight out said I don't have the talent for this!

 

[SactoPete]

Are you sure you just don't have the "sound experience" from which to draw from? If you have ZERO Cannonball CDs, it makes me wonder if honestly you just aren't listening to enough music. It's hard to be inspired unless you have the vocabulary to draw from - and I don't just mean licks, etc., it's a matter of your subconscious being able to come up with ideas based on extensions of things you've heard. Can you sing improvisations? That's always a good test of figuring out where you are drawing a blank from.

But, I'd say, above all, LISTEN. Listen to things you like, things you don't like, and when you do, listen from a sax player's standpoint - the melody, phrasing, as if you were about to be asked to play it.

Then, when you can, play along - not with the Aebersolds, but with the full recordings. Pick out licks you like, mimic the style, make up some of your own.

Over time, these little things can become part of your vocabulary... you can then try playing them 'with the right feel' over the Aebersold / Leonard backings, and can look at what stuff you were playing that SOUNDED good looks like over the written chords... sometimes you can be surprised! And remember, if it sounds good, it's right!

Fighter, it IS hard man, and I am SOOO far from figuring it out myself, but I find doing the above makes a big difference for me at least. It teaches me so much about phrasing, articulation, chords, and styles, and develops my ear at the same time. It is, for me, also much more fun than long tones and scales (which I force myself to do).

Don't give up though - I've listened to your recordings and there's some great tone and ideas there.

Pete

 

[SaxyAcoustician]

Nothing easy is worthwhile

I took you guys's advice on these boards on how to approach the Aebersold. The general consesus from what I've read is that Aebersold's approach is not the best (the mindset of which scales go with the chords, etc). It was more of a very informal practice, I just wanted to play. I tried the "ear approach," not looking at the charts.

Jazz is not something you just "do". It must be studied just like you would the hardest college subjects such as physics, chemistry, math, etc. It requires enormous discipline and time.

You have to DISSECT each and every chord--know the notes that make up the chord, the associated scale(s), understand its function. This is the minimum. It takes months if not years, believe me. So have patience.

I find Aebersold's pedagogy to be fine. It's just that he puts it all out there at once and, unless you have a good teacher, students don't know what's first. Take it slowly.

Don't be discouraged. The truest test of whether or not your heart is really into something is seeing if you get back on your horse after getting kicked in the teeth.

Remember: nothing easy is worthwhile. If jazz was easy everyone would be doing it and sounding like Coltrane!

 

[rleitch]

I thought this thread was about articulation:? Please disregard my previous post.

rory

 

[Photo Matt]

"....I recently bought a budget curved soprano and at the time I was deciding to buy either the sax or spend twice as much and get a bigger HDTV. I feel that I should've gone for the tv."



If it makes you feel better, think about this: HDTV prices keep dropping, while musical instrument prices rise every year with inflation. Therefore, the TV will be that much cheaper 3 years from now, while the horn will be more expensive. Unless you've got multiple sopranos lying around the house, you've made the better economic decision. Warren Buffet would be proud!

 

[Carl H.]

training years to become a human tape player (playing classical music).

How sad.