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I need some advice on pad installation

5K views 28 replies 13 participants last post by  Mark Fleming 
#1 ·
Hey all, so I've been working on a 1950's Pan American Alto and I need some help. This is my first time working on a horn so I am still learning.

I've replaced all of the springs which was a pretty simple task; however, pad installation is giving me some trouble.
I used shellac to put the pads in, and all of them fit just fine. My problem is, even though I have seated the pads and they all have good looking rings on them, I still get leaks.
What else do I need to do? I understand that the tone holes need to be level and they are. I just can't seem to get these pads to seal?! I tried music medic's technique of "fluffing" the pads which is where you heat the pad cup then pull the pad down with a pad prick in the areas with a leak. This seems kind of a harsh treatment to the pads in my opinion. I am seriously desperate for help and have no idea what to do. No matter what other forums I've read, nothing seems to help, so I'm hoping a very experienced technician on here can help!
This has been driving me crazy for days!
:banghead:
 
#3 ·
Yeah. The double-sided pad slick is really all one needs as far as pad spatulas.

So...you floated the pads once the keys were on, yes ?

I agree with you, I would not recommend the, ahem, 'fluffing' :| technique

(jeez.....in my 'hood, that term meant something completely different :dazed:).

You wanna install, float, then find the areas of the leaks. For example: "OK, the G is still leaking between 3 and 6 o'clock".

If the leak is substantial, I suggest using shims behind the pad (I use business cards of varying thicknesses, cut with an xacto blade into a crescent moon shape to fit the keycup.).

If the leaks are very small, then you can try key bending with a pad spatula. But for a novice, be careful ~ closing one leak may open a new one where the spatula was located. Just takes some getting used to.

Important thing here ~ when checking the sealing of the new pad...you want to apply VERY LITTLE pressure to the key when closing it.
If you have to push or squeeze down at all in order to get the light to vanish, then that's really not gonna cut it. One of my techs uses the back of his pinky to close sax keys...he says any more pressure required than that for a full seal is gonna result in a leaky pad for the player.

The other thing to consider is whether the leak is a pad leak or a mechanical one (the latter being the sort of leak resulting from interconnections among the keys). For example, both your low F# and E keys may be properly seated and sealing, but one or the other 'leaks' because the cork on the linkage when E is fingered is the wrong thickness, etc. So if the keys in question are the stack keys or the low B or Bb keys, check this out as well.

Sounds like you are off to a good start.

Where the springs really THAT far gone to require replacement ? I have done about 800 refurbs at this point, and I only had to do full-horn spring replacement 3 or 4 times.

Anyways...good on' ya !

Keep it up.
 
#9 ·
I would not recommend the, ahem, 'fluffing' :| technique

(jeez.....in my 'hood, that term meant something completely different :dazed:)
That adds a whole 'nother meaning to "second ending." :twisted:
 
#7 ·
Right.

So after floating, you still get leaks. Typical, really, even after leveling the holes.

So you need to go to shimming next (or key bending if the leaks are small).

Stick the light in and go up and down the horn. Find each leak, and write it down, like:

Bis ~ 3 o'clock

G ~ 3 to 6 o'clock

G# ~ 2 to 4 o'clock

Side C ~ 5 to 7 o'clock

Low E ~ 10 to 2 o'clock

Use the spines of the keys to determine the leak positions (i.e., for me ~ the spine ends are 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock on most keys - stack, spat, bell - and 6 and 12 o'clock on the palmkeys).

Easy shim method:

Then you gotta reheat the keys and remove the pads. BUT when doing this, first mark the pad with a small dot (I use an ink pen, usually marking it at a point on one end where the key spine is) because your pads now have seats, so you of course wanna make sure those seats end up over the tonehole rims in the exact same place, or you will inadvertently double-seat the pad and that will cause even more leaking.

Remove the pad, cut the shim from the business card, trim it as required to make it fit nicely in the keycup; reheat the shellac in the cup and press the shim into the shellac so it adheres. Then heat the end of the shellac stick and wipe some of the heated shellac atop the paper shim.
Heat the keycup 'til the shellac in it (and on the shim) liquifies; heat the back of the pad quickly and carefully so the shellac liquefies, and pop the pad back in; wiping any oozy shellac away.

Then give 'er another go ~ install the keys on the horn, and heat the keys to float the pads again. Don't squeeze or press down with a whole lotta force; the idea is not to displace the shellac, but rather let the shellac and shim work together to fill in the space behind the pad as it is floating level to the tonehole.

This time the shims should make the leaks disappear, or at least minimize the prior leaks so some key bending can take care of the rest. If all goes well.

Good luck. This is exacting stuff, it takes time and patience and really, it'll take a person at least a half-dozen horns before they will start to really get the hang of it. But if you just stick with it, you can get a decent result.

Let us know how it goes.
 
#8 ·
Say no to shims. They seldom if ever get rid of the leak and make the pad unresponsive to adjustment. Ask the best guys in the business what they think about partial shims and saxophones. Heat the key cup, mash the resonator into the back of the pad cup (helps make the pad nice and flat), maneuver the pad so that it is covering as much of the tone hole as possible, then using either a pad prick or a dull flat head screw driver bring down the edges of the pads to cover any remaining leaks (I started using a screwdriver with the encouragement of Tim Glessman, Tim learned from Randy Jones). Do this carefully until the pad seals around the entire pad cup with the lightest touch you can manage. Lightly wedge the key shut until the shellac cools, check again, lather rinse and repeat. It takes time, patience, and experience to do this quickly and efficiently. Good luck!

-Micah
 
#16 ·
Hehe....Just say No to the prick/screwdriver method. In this instance, way more trouble than it's worth and certainly not the way to go for a novice.

I can give you an alternate list of 'the best in the business' who swear by the shim method, so as Milandro and Scott say.... people have differing opinions as to the best methods to use. IMHO, you can mess with the prick method after you have done a few horns (although even then quite honestly, it's still more trouble than it's worth).

I disagree wholeheartedly that a shim in any way compromises the ability for a pad to adjust, level, float, or seat....when shimming is done correctly.

All I can say is...having done refurbs on a crapload of horns over the past 12 years - as I am sure everyone else here has (I may hit 900 saxes by the end of 2014, actually)...over 70% of them I have ever serviced have had shims in there of some sort when I removed the pads...whether the pads were 10 years old or 50 years old or 70 years old.

It's a tried and true method which has withstood the test of time...every tech I have ever used (that'd be over a dozen) uses the method in one way or another, and every one of those techs is highly regarded. Safe to say it is an industry standard as it was in 1920, '30', '50, '80, '00.....

heck....someone else can provide you with a list of successful techs who swear that shellac is horrible and sinful, and hot glue is the way to go.

Etc, etc.....

I find the 'debate' funny, because honestly...all we are trying to do here is give the back of the pad a substrate which allows it to conform to the edge of the tonehole. So the substrate needs to occupy some volume behind the pad and do it in a stable manner.

So...all the shim does is take up the exact same amount of volume behind the pad that the shellac would occupy using the prick method. But it's significantly easier to level a pad with the solid piece of shim in shellac behind it, as opposed to relying solely on the liquid shellac occupying the same area, as the shim is a more solid substrate occupying that space....is all. Also less chance of damaging the pad.

It's pretty simple in concept, relatively easy to carry out successfully, highly successful, and holds really well actually .

But the intent of all the methods is the same....and the fact is, there are a few ways to achieve the exact same desired result, some easier than others.
 
#10 ·
What else do I need to do? I understand that the tone holes need to be level and they are. I just can't seem to get these pads to seal?!
Are the pad cups level? They should be.

I just can't seem to get these pads to seal?! I tried music medic's technique of "fluffing" the pads which is where you heat the pad cup then pull the pad down with a pad prick in the areas with a leak. This seems kind of a harsh treatment to the pads in my opinion.
I personally don't fluff pads often. At least not on pads I install from scratch; pads that are already installed and have their seat are a different case, similar to the OP's. Others use this technique often, with great success.

I would agree that if you're at the point where you either have to fluff or use partial shims (like if the tone holes or pad cups weren't addressed), I'd do some judicious pad pricking instead.

BTW, shims (both whole and partial) were discussed maybe a month ago in another thread, with a variety of opinions from a number of the member techs. Search the forum and you'll get a lot of advice on this, and saxophone repair in general.

Like averageschmoe, I use a screwdriver for this task. It's not harsh if you use the tool delicately. I have also used the dull end of a needle spring for really small areas, but you can angle the screwdriver to cover different amounts of area, too, so the screwdriver tends to be my preferred tool.

If you're poking holes in the leather, you're pushing horizontally against the pad too much. The idea is to get enough of a grip to move the pad vertically, in and out of the pad cup, at that location. Dull the blade with a file to take some of the "bite" away if you're not sure...

Good luck. Keep us posted.
 
#12 ·
Without floating the pad (which will create inconsistencies in how level the pad is in the cup) you can bend the key with pliers that have had the teeth removed (smooth), a wooden/rawhide mallet/ and a hammered-flat Upper/lower stack rod that has been bent in an L shape.

Step 1. Make sure the pad is sitting completely flat and level in the key cup
Lateral leakage - use the smooth pliers to straighten the cup by adjusting the key arm. Make sure you do this first.
Front end leakage - use the flattened rod to wedge into the rear of the key and apply pressure to the front of the cup. Be careful you don't do overdo it.
Rear leakage - use the rawhide or wooden mallet to hit the key arm near where the cup is attached. This will bend the rear of the cup down. Too much and you'll have front end leakage. A small wedge might be required to reach the hard-to-get-to key arms such as in the bottom stack.

Adjusting regulation is a whole different matter and things can get really F&*ed up if you don't do it correctly. Someone else can tackle that monster.

Don't use this method if you don't like the idea of bending keys. I know there are probably plenty of techs on here that would disagree with the above method, but it's not incorrect.
 
#13 ·
If you have leaks, then its a matter of a couple of things, the pad is too thick or too thin, the tone hole hasnt been levelled, the pad is too wide for the keycup, if all these have been addressed then its hand skills
 
#14 ·
One of the most argumentative areas of the forum is the repairs. Don’t you love it when a bunch of techs all argue about the many methods on how to do one thing ( and then argue on how bad the methods used by the “ others” are) ?


Then one sees that, whoever, us mortals who buy the techs services, chose to work on our saxophone, he or she would use a method that other equally qualified techs would frown upon or plainly despise.

But once a medical specialist advised me on which doctor to chose for a certain procedure and he was very clear that he plainly wouldn’t use the services of some of his colleagues with much the same attitude displayed here.

This proves to me, one again, that this is a minefield.
 
#18 ·
Good padwork can be done almost as many ways as bad padwork can (for instance I have never used shims, and I like to think my padwork is good), and it is one of the areas of this craft where you can do it every day for 50 years and still be learning on your last day at work. If this question could be answered neatly, it would have been done a long time ago.

My advice is to try to understand the mechanics of the situation: the tonehole, the key geometry, the pad, the adhesive you are using, and the material properties of each. You need (IMHO) a sound understanding of all of this to do good padwork, because each time you do a pad, something will be different than before, so understanding the WHY is essential to learning what decisions to make.

That said, start with flat pads, flat toneholes, properly aligned keycups, the proper amount of adhesive to make the pad sit parallel to the tonehole when the pad cup is parallel to the tonehole and everything will go much easier. But then again, each of those bullet points is a whole subject in itself, composed of many other subjects...

 
#19 ·
Yep, and some people can do it and some cannot.

I have had guys apprentice in my shop and even after months of doing it numerous times a day, they still cannot get it right, and other folks have had it perfect by the end of there first working day, go figure.....

I recently had to let a guy go, he came to me as a local repairer (running his own business), but could not keep his business afloat, so I took him on as an employee and after a year and a bit of working for me, and tutoring him daily, he still could not get it right, some people can do it and some cannot.
 
#22 ·
To OP, this is a job where 0.01mm or better accuracy in everything is an ideal. I suggest that you have not been aiming for anywhere near that.

Fluffing and shimming are not fundamentally wrong, but from what I have seen, almost everybody using these techniques is using them so badly that the accuracy and reliability of pad closure fail miserably...

- You must never have air pockets behind pads. It makes the accuracy of pad closure unstable. (Air pockets are very common when shims are used.)
- "Fluffing" without expertise is highly likely to result in air pockets.
- It is impossible to "fluff" without resulting air pockets unless it is avoided by having enough shellac - a thickish bed of it - and technician skill and experience to make it ooze from the unfluffed areas to the being-fluffed area.
- The only time that shims are appropriate is when there are no resulting air pockets, i.e. where the shellac has filled in all air spaces associated with the shims, especially the area where a partial shim meets where there is no shim.
- RE partial shims without shellac: When a partial shim is introduced, the pad is capable of see-sawing on the edge of that shim. There must be enough shellac to fill the spaces so that this does not happen.

BTW if you have installed inferior pads that have irregular thickness, you have created huge job for yourself. Quicker to change the pads.
 
#27 ·
To OP, this is a job where 0.01mm or better accuracy in everything is an ideal. I suggest that you have not been aiming for anywhere near that.

Fluffing and shimming are not fundamentally wrong, but from what I have seen, almost everybody using these techniques is using them so badly that the accuracy and reliability of pad closure fail miserably...

- You must never have air pockets behind pads. It makes the accuracy of pad closure unstable. (Air pockets are very common when shims are used.)
- "Fluffing" without expertise is highly likely to result in air pockets.
- It is impossible to "fluff" without resulting air pockets unless it is avoided by having enough shellac - a thickish bed of it - and technician skill and experience to make it ooze from the unfluffed areas to the being-fluffed area. [ . . . . ]
With the problem of air pockets in mind, and having a firm and even base for the pad in the cup, do you think shellac is generally better to use where you're having to fluff a lot of pads? Seems to me that shellac tends to be slightly more rigid when it solidifies than hot glue, and a little more "runny" when melted which might help it fill in the pockets.

Speaking from essentially zero practically applied experience, mind you! :bluewink:
 
#23 ·
First, let me say that I do everything the wrong way.

I'm not sure what fluffing is. Maybe it's one of the things that I do. 95% of the time, the pad is simply floated with no issues assuming that the tone hole and the pad cup is level. The pad cup may not be flat across its face, either from damage or from a prior heavy-handed adjustment. That can sometimes complicate things. When they key cups are off, I place them flat on my glass bench surface and check this as part of a rebuild. A taco-shaped key cup can hold a flat pad, but it can also cause frustrating little slivers of light that are hard to eliminate.

I have a pin prick. Sounds bad, but it's actually good. It's actually a tool from a dissection kit or something that I don't even remember. It is a three inch long needle and a four inch long handle. Big enough to actually use. Fits through rods, etc. to access the side of a pad. I have used that little jeweler's screwdriver to try to adjust the edge of a pad, but they don't grip until I'm using too much force. With the pin, I can poke the side of the pad (which doesn't matter a bit) and really control lifting or pressing a section of the pad. The key (no pun intended) is to have the shellac or hot glue at the right temp. Then, just hold the pad in the right position until cooled. Might take 30 seconds. Big deal. I use this method when the sliver of light is smaller than 90 degrees. Sometimes, I pull down the low spot, and then lightly close the pad, using the leak light to show me that the seal is complete. Hold for 30 seconds and I'm done with that one.

If the leak is bigger, then I might do some bending. I put an old reed across the high area of the pad and squeeze the low area. The flat side of the reed is on the tone hole edge. I've never had any damage to either the pad or the tone hole rim. It's an acquired skill that has to be learned through guesstimation, but it's not rocket science. One of the many uses for old reeds.

Mark
 
#26 ·
I wrote "Fluffing and shimming are not fundamentally wrong, but from what I have seen, almost everybody using these techniques is using them so badly that the accuracy and reliability of pad closure fail miserably"

You may well be one of the few exceptions, hence not "gulity". :)
 
#28 ·
The rigidity of set shellac is good for stability of adjustment, and possibly for acoustic reasons.
And the relative fluidity of typical gun hot-melts makes it a lot more prone to ooze around the side of the pad during floating adjustment, making a bigger mess than shellac does.
I also think the little more runny is likely to facilitate air pockets as much as avoid them. (Float a polystyrene slab on water. Lift a corner... air pocket under the polystyrene. Now float it on thick treacle and lift. Get my point?)

But I cannot really answer your question because like most manufacturers, I gave up using a thick bed of glue a very long time ago. Hence no adjustments done by altering the "float".
 
#29 ·
Having used both shellac and hot glue, I've played with their idiosyncrasies and now generally use hot glue. I'm not convinced that an air bubble behind the pad has any effect unless it was big enough to allow the pad to flex (which would require a "bubble" about 1/3 the size of the pad). Knowing that there may be a bubble behind the pad may disturb some people, but I believe that I can always find an improvement that is more productive than worrying about bubbles behind a pad.

I like the fact that too much shellac can ooze out beside the pad and simply be fractured cleanly away when cooled. I even bought the black shellac for seating black pads. Sometimes, it's nice to have the short "open time" for shellac in that it goes quickly from liquid to solid and freezes the pad in position. That being said, hot glue's long open time has some advantages and it has it's own stage at which it is easy to remove any excess. It has a "warm booger" stage where it isn't liquid and isn't yet solid. It is a "semi-open" time where a little hot glue showing around the edge of the pad can be caught with the pin and pulled loose from the pad and cup rim. It's probably about a 30 second window, and once you've used hot glue a little it's not to difficult to check for this before the solid stage. Once solid, any excess showing around the pad is probably best left alone, as trying to pull a little excess from the pad might even tear the leather or flex the pad cup. Again, some will be more disturbed by this "excess" showing than others. They might even "hear" the difference of a pad that has a tiny bit of glue showing on the edge. But visible glue is going to be at the bottom of my "to do" list.

Mark
 
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