[Montana Nate]

I have the ability to make every mouthpiece I play sound like the 1970’s c* I used as a classical sax major in the early 90s. Don’t get me wrong, I love the c* from tha era, and on soprano, alto and bari I can get away with it. I use a Meyer on alto and bari for section work and it sounds pretty good, a passable lead sound on alto.

my problem is tenor. C* to old dukoff I am nasal and irritating. I make a dark sound, open oral cavity with a good bit of mouthpiece in my mouth. Anyone have any suggestion for something to try. I’m looking for a little bright, section sound. Generally play on a 6 or so on a jazz mouthpiec.

 

[lydian]

It's your classical, clarinet-like embouchure. A thin bottom lip against the reed results in that nasal sound, no matter what mouthpiece. Too much mouthpiece can have the same result. I've seen it a million times in students and fellow musicians. For that big, lush tenor sound, you need a ton of bottom lip flesh on that reed, well supported by the chin muscles pointing up, not down. And take in enough mouthpiece to cover the gap between the reed and the rails, nothing more is needed. But a fat lip will cover before and past that point. There's definitely a sweet spot for every note on the horn. Check out some videos of Bob Mintzer and others for the classic jazz embouchure.

I think the physics of the fat lip approach is a matter of distributing the force over a greater surface area. Concentrating the force in a small area (thin lip), results in nasal. Spreading the same amount of force over 3/4" or so provides the same overall pressure needed to control the reed, but since it's not all in one place, the nasal component goes away.

No pressure at all is just as bad. If you take in too much mouthpiece, and there's no control whatsoever, resulting in a duck call sound. You have to maintain full control (pressure), but not all in one spot.

Of course a high baffle means more brightness. But a lot of brightness comes from the shape of the mouth cavity. When I want to brighten my sound, my tongue is shaped as it would be if I were making a whooshing wind sound, making the volume inside smaller, speeding up the airstream and directing it downward. Really hard to describe, but experimenting should get you there.

It's gonna be hard to change something you've been doing since the 70's. But use your ears as well as closely watch the masters you want to sound like.

In SOTW tradition, I'm sure the next post will completely contradict me. But the embouchure I describe works for me and many, many others.

 

[ajarndontree]

Jazz players typically use a lot more and faster air to get that big sound. In my experience, the best way to develop the ability to get the most out of a mouthpiece intended for jazz is to practice playing the overtone series. Once you master this, continue to play with an airstream almost fast enough to jump up to the next overtone but not quite. Here's a good video on how to practice this on YouTube:

Btw I see you are going by Montana Nate. Coincidentally I learned to develop a jazz tone starting by playing the overtone series as a student of Alan Leech at Montana State University back in the 90's. However I transferred to Colorado State and ended up in Chicago after grad school.

 

[ajarndontree]

also you mentioned you play on a 6 mouthpiece. Did anyone ever tell you the larger the mouthpiece tip opening the softer the reed you should use? You might enjoy the extra buzz you get out of a 7 or 8 tip opening if you use a softer reed. I use a Vandoren 3 on a Selmer C star but a Rigotti or Vandoren Java 2.5 with a 7 or 8 tip opening. I don’t recommend tip openings larger than an 8, unless you want to sound like a chainsaw. Lol

 

[datsaxman]

No reason that tips larger than 8 have to sound like a chainsaw.

Mr. PeeBee does not. I do not. Lots of other do not. That would be due to operator error, not the tip opening intrinsically.

 

[datsaxman]

mdavej,

Agree with the idea. Physics: Force / Area = Pressure. In Physics, words have a very specific meaning. You are kind of using Force and Pressure interchangeably.
They are related, but not identical.

Your paragraph, edited:

I think the physics of the fat lip approach is a matter of distributing the force over a greater surface area ((, resulting in less pressure)). Concentrating the force in a small area (thin lip), results in nasal. Spreading the same amount of force over 3/4" or so provides the same overall ((FORCE)) needed to control the reed, but since it's not all in one place, the nasal component goes away ((, since the pressure is lower)).

.

 

[ajarndontree]

No reason that tips larger than 8 have to sound like a chainsaw.

Mr. PeeBee does not. I do not. Lots of other do not. That would be due to operator error, not the tip opening intrinsically.

I was exaggerating to get a point across. All I was saying is with a huge tip opening you might get more buzz than you bargained for. I personally am not a big fan of the tone of, for example, Clarence Clemons. But I suppose it all comes down to personal preference.

 

[buddy lee]

At this point in my development I truly believe a lot of tone production comes down to what you hear in your head. I think that sound will come through you naturally, depending on what it is. If I were you, I'd spend a lot of time listening to the greats and finding a direction that resonates with you, then imagining that sound in your head when you play. As you said, you can make everything sound like a C*, maybe that sound is so much a part of you that you need a new direction.

 

[eyeabee]

As is written by others I think more bottom lip may help solve the nasal sound issues. It might also be worth checking if you are applying too much pressure with your embouchure - try playing in the lower register with your octave key depressed, all the way down to the bottom. Obviously it will sound dreadful, but if it’s completely impossible from, say, F down then you are applying too much pressure to the reed.

If so, a remedy that worked for me: try pushing your mouthpiece further on (may be 1/3-1/2 inch) and doing some slow exercises with a tuner, against a drone - scales, arpeggios etc for a couple of weeks until you start to feel more in control of the sound again. Try to avoid playing any other horns whilst you make the adjustment. It will be painful at first but ultimately worth it (if this is the problem you are experiencing). Eventually my mouthpiece has ended up maybe halfway between where it was originally and where I pushed it onto when changing my technique, you don’t need to endlessly punish yourself.

Another thing to consider is this - to paraphrase Wayne Shorter: if you want to change your sound then change your listening. In the long run I think learning solo’s by ear can be transformative for anyone’s sound.

good luck!

 

[KeithL]

At this point in my development I truly believe a lot of tone production comes down to what you hear in your head. I think that sound will come through you naturally, depending on what it is. If I were you, I'd spend a lot of time listening to the greats and finding a direction that resonates with you, then imagining that sound in your head when you play. As you said, you can make everything sound like a C*, maybe that sound is so much a part of you that you need a new direction.

I agree and better yet after listening for a while put the records or CDs on and play along with them trying to emulate the sound you're hearing. You've been playing with a very classical sound concept for 40 years. To change that you are going to physically need to change some things about your embouchure and the way you put air into the horn as many of the other guys have suggested. However you need to have a clear sound concept that you are going for in your head to give your body a goal or target to aim at.

Here's a link to a video of Don Menza that's been posted many times here at SOTW. At about the 5:00 mark Don begins to emulate different players. He has such a strong internal sound concept for each of these players in his mind, no doubt from hours of listening to them, that he can produce pretty good representations of their sounds right in the moment with little effort.

 

[Montana Nate]

It's your classical, clarinet-like embouchure. A thin bottom lip against the reed results in that nasal sound, no matter what mouthpiece. Too much mouthpiece can have the same result. I've seen it a million times in students and fellow musicians. For that big, lush tenor sound, you need a ton of bottom lip flesh on that reed, well supported by the chin muscles pointing up, not down. And take in enough mouthpiece to cover the gap between the reed and the rails, nothing more is needed. But a fat lip will cover before and past that point. There's definitely a sweet spot for every note on the horn. Check out some videos of Bob Mintzer and others for the classic jazz embouchure.

I think the physics of the fat lip approach is a matter of distributing the force over a greater surface area. Concentrating the force in a small area (thin lip), results in nasal. Spreading the same amount of force over 3/4" or so provides the same overall pressure needed to control the reed, but since it's not all in one place, the nasal component goes away.

No pressure at all is just as bad. If you take in too much mouthpiece, and there's no control whatsoever, resulting in a duck call sound. You have to maintain full control (pressure), but not all in one spot.

Of course a high baffle means more brightness. But a lot of brightness comes from the shape of the mouth cavity. When I want to brighten my sound, my tongue is shaped as it would be if I were making a whooshing wind sound, making the volume inside smaller, speeding up the airstream and directing it downward. Really hard to describe, but experimenting should get you there.

It's gonna be hard to change something you've been doing since the 70's. But use your ears as well as closely watch the masters you want to sound like.

In SOTW tradition, I'm sure the next post will completely contradict me. But the embouchure I describe works for me and many, many others.

Thanks that ma sense to me, I will give it a try.

 

[Montana Nate]

Newer to the forum and in other forums regarding other subjects you get a lot of free advice worth just what you paid for it. There has not been a single answer that wasn’t thought out and worth considering. I guess I was hesitant to fool around with my embouchure but as a doubler we do it everywhere so why not tenor sax. I’ll work with what I have for a few months and give these ideas a try. Also thanks for the video links. Wish they were around when I was a kid.

 

[ving]

I think there can be a profound difference in making even small adjustments like learning to play with a more relaxed embouchure by pushing in the mpc a bit further and opening the throat. I find still after many years playing this to be fascinating. I’m currently going through this process in getting used to a new mpc and it is tough to change some of these attributes without real diligent and thoughtful practice.