[SamManReed]

Hi y'all,

I just signed up so I could share this with you. I honestly had no idea!

I think it's something that's worth discussing among the sax fraternity, because our public reputation is at stake. I am going to paraphrase something that was sent to me by a French horn player in response to a question about horn range and potential arrangements we could play in our concert band. This was written by a serious, pro-level player.

" ... band music is really ruined for horn players when their parts are doubled with saxes or euphoniums, not just solos but backing parts too ... it's so frustrating that I've been skipping rehearsals ... when I hear saxophones doubling my part I just put down my horn and don't play ... why do composers do that? ... you probably won't see me at rehearsals any more except just before the performance ... "

" ... I was chatting with [a horn player in a famous professional orchestra] and he asked me how was my band, I said it was challenging but frustrating sometimes and he said 'yeah because you're doubled with saxes right?' ... "

" ... when strings play along with horns they add support and it makes the horn sound great, but when other instruments play with the horns it spoils it ... "​

I'm not going to start editorializing here, except to say that at first I was tempted to reply, "suck it up, precious!", then I thought about it more and I recognize that there may be something in what he said. He may not be anti-sax at all, but against all those arrangers who feel compelled to give everyone something to play all the time, instead of carefully choosing instruments for color and effect. Maybe doubling the saxes and horns really does sound lousy, compared to having separate sections where each group of instruments can shine.

Anyways, I see it the issue revolving around several potential problems:

• are too many band arrangements done in a boring, lazy, over-scored way that frustrates the better musicians?
• does the saxophone belong in an ensemble playing classical music, or is the sound inappropriate?
• do too many classical musicians suffer from excessive prejudice against saxes, believing (irrationally) that they can't play classical music or "don't sound right"?
• are horn players spoiled prima donnas who want only solos and horn solis and can't be happy simply to play along with the ensemble? Do they avoid other ensembles, such as brass bands, if they would have to endure too much doubling and sharing of melodies?

If saxes and horns really are incompatible and sound lousy together then we're in big trouble, because I can hardly think of any band arrangements that don't do this, heavily.

That's what I'm mulling over. It kind of dampens my enthusiasm for going to band practice if I know that I've ruined a horn player's day just by showing up.

 

[maddenma]

There's a reason that a horn is a spiral....

It used to look like a trumpet, until he pissed off the sax section with snobbish dreck like this and had his horn rearranged around his neck.

 

[hakukani]

I always hated to play offbeats with the horns. They are welcome to play the pah of the oom

 

[69193]

Anyways, I see it the issue revolving around several potential problems:

• are too many band arrangements done in a boring, lazy, over-scored way that frustrates the better musicians?
• does the saxophone belong in an ensemble playing classical music, or is the sound inappropriate?
• do too many classical musicians suffer from excessive prejudice against saxes, believing (irrationally) that they can't play classical music or "don't sound right"?
• are horn players spoiled prima donnas who want only solos and horn solis and can't be happy simply to play along with the ensemble? Do they avoid other ensembles, such as brass bands, if they would have to endure too much doubling and sharing of melodies?

If saxes and horns really are incompatible and sound lousy together then we're in big trouble, because I can hardly think of any band arrangements that don't do this, heavily.

That's what I'm mulling over. It kind of dampens my enthusiasm for going to band practice if I know that I've ruined a horn player's day just by showing up.

In the case of this person...it sounds like that's the case. Let's be honest here...if he/she were THAT good...they could pick/choose an ensemble to play with that is "less offensive" to their ears. i.e. No saxophones.

The fact that they said that they don't want to come to rehearsals anymore shows a lack of professionalism, in my opinion. I wouldn't let someone like that take away from your enjoyment of playing.

 

[jazzcatJr95]

honestly, most horn players i know are prima donnas. All they care about is being loud and proud and wanna be heard. they don't enjoy blending and because during the majority of the time they are doubled with the saxes, they blame us. Horns and woodwinds were made to go together and sound great together, however, the egos that come along with being great don't always appeal to one another. as one of my good friends once said, "I love Music, but i HATE the ego that comes with it."

 

[StanleySaxMan]

I am all for ruining a horn players day!

 

[Agent27]

Horns suck. That's why their bells are facing AWAY from the audience.

 

[Dave C]

I agree the Horn player needs to take his nose out of his ****.

However, I have had conversations with Musical Directors in which they've told me that a lot of band music is over-scored or 'thickly' scored, with too much doubling of parts throughout the band, not just horns and saxes. This kind of scoring provides security in that no particular section of the band is too exposed. In more challenging band arrangements this is less the case apparently.

In our band the Horns are grateful for any help they can get......

 

[Norbert]

Horns and saxes have both their unique sound quality. When played well doubling will probably mask the unique elements of each. This is when played in unison. In call and response arrangements both can excel. This would be my preference.

Being a sax player I respect the horn players and we couldn't do without them. Their instruments are much harder to control. It takes more physical effort and they have trouble playing extended parts. Maybe that's why the reed section usually sound better than the horn section. It doesn't mean that they suck. They are different. It is almost like man and woman. The differences is what it is about. Let the men do their thing and the ladies theirs. Do it right and it will all be just fine.

 

[Agent27]

I agree the Horn player needs to take his nose out of his ****.

However, I have had conversations with Musical Directors in which they've told me that a lot of band music is over-scored or 'thickly' scored, with too much doubling of parts throughout the band, not just horns and saxes. This kind of scoring provides security in that no particular section of the band is too exposed. In more challenging band arrangements this is less the case apparently.

In our band the Horns are grateful for any help they can get......

The only time I play with horns is with a church orchestra. Most of these charts have the altos doubling the french horns and the tenors doubling the trombones. When I started at my church, there was only one french horn so I just ended up playing the horn 2 part. They later added a 2nd horn so I was just doubling parts then. Same would've happened with tenor because there were 2 trombones. So I just ended up playing clarinet and flute instead and only breaking out the sax if there was an arrangement that included a sax solo.

 

[click]

The director would tell the saxes to back off or drop out if they were not blending well. Saxes are flexible enough to support the timbre of horns, and the complainer should either speak to the director ("We need just the horns in here to get the pure sound for this part of the piece [imho]"), shut up, or get out.

 

[Isle of Jazz]

Horns and saxes have both their unique sound quality. When played well doubling will probably mask the unique elements of each. This is when played in unison. In call and response arrangements both can excel. This would be my preference.

Being a sax player I respect the horn players and we couldn't do without them. Their instruments are much harder to control. It takes more physical effort and they have trouble playing extended parts. Maybe that's why the reed section usually sound better than the horn section. It doesn't mean that they suck. They are different. It is almost like man and woman. The differences is what it is about. Let the men do their thing and the ladies theirs. Do it right and it will all be just fine.

Very well said.

 

[ismail]

...
[*]does the saxophone belong in an ensemble playing classical music, or is the sound inappropriate?...

IMHO, I never found the sax could really contribute anything worthwhile to classical music at all. From what I've seen, of course. It's either an inappropriate timbre or a timbre that sounds similar to a cello (tenor sax) but worse.

 

[retread]

1. Many arrangers are lazy and will double as many parts as they can get away with.

2. Many horn players are sensitive to the allegation that a trombone can sound like a French horn if you put a hand in the bell and miss a lot of notes.

 

[Smokey613]

I find the parts for tenor sax in our concert band are mostly written for doubling of the bones ( which we have plenty of) or substituting for french horns ( which we have none ). The altos do occasionally have lead parts but never the tenors. We also get a lot of "flack" from the low brass. Even the director made the comment he had never heard a tenor sax play in tune, must less in tune with each other as we two do so I guess that was a compliment of sorts. I just chalk it up to jealousy.

 

[Harvey]

We have the written doubles for the Frenchies but we don't play em.

Here's the thing. If you play in instrument where the whole time you've learned to play it and finally played to any degree of competance people are telling you you're about the best sounding instrument in any ensemble, eventually you start to believe it. And when you think you sound that good and you muff the part you might honestly "overlook" that the band isn't centered around your instrument and become offended that others are called to make sure certain parts sound good on the whole.

In the concert band I'm in, if you miss the last rehearsal for any reason, you don't play the concert. Doesn't matter if you're first chair or the the prime soloist in a piece the band is playing. You miss, you don't get on the stage. And our band is good enough that any section's absences can easily be covered by that section's seconds or another section's first.

That horn player has an entitlement attitude. Withhold her pay for the rehearsal and then see what she does.

Harv

 

[AltoRuth]

I agree the Horn player needs to take his nose out of his ****.

However, I have had conversations with Musical Directors in which they've told me that a lot of band music is over-scored or 'thickly' scored, with too much doubling of parts throughout the band, not just horns and saxes. This kind of scoring provides security in that no particular section of the band is too exposed. In more challenging band arrangements this is less the case apparently.

In our band the Horns are grateful for any help they can get......

Most of the playing I get to do is in largely amateur community bands where the horn section often needs help (not that they necessarily acknowledge it). It is a difficult instrument, and often in short supply. Generally the sax section in such bands is stronger. Lots of concert band music is scored for beginning or amateur bands where doubling parts is a way of insuring that important components are covered. Orchestral transcriptions can be especially problematic.

From the other side of the fence, as a sax player, I often feel "put upon" when playing music from the pop or jazz genres and find that something that in my ears should rightfully belong exclusively to the sax section is being doubled by the F. horns. I guess they need to be given something to play, but still............:twisted:

 

[SamManReed]

The horn player who complained to me is a legitimate (retired) pro and doesn't need his sound bolstered with saxes. But he is the only horn in the band most of the time, does he really think he can sound like an entire section of horns? I'm sure he would rather try to do so all by himself, than to put up with saxes and euphoniums. He's a friendly guy other than being a diva, so I'll treat it like a joke that he hates saxes on the few occasions that he's actually going to show up.

It was fairly asked above by someone, if he's so hot what's he doing in a community band and not an orchestra. Good question! Maybe the symphony is too demanding about attendance, no divas, etc. and it's easier to be a big fish in a band where they'll treat you like a star than play in an orchestra where there are several other horn players who also have good chops and big egos. I noticed that when he started skipping rehearsals it was only after ensuring that there were no other horns who could cover for him and slide into the 1st chair during his prolonged absence. He was careful to come to the first rehearsals to get the music, and the last rehearsal to keep his chair.

It's too bad that arrangers often can't come up with something interesting for the saxes to do in bands. Baris seems to be almost entirely doubled with the bassoon and/or bass clarinet, maybe sometimes with the bass 'bone and euphonium or tuba. I'm not sure what I would do otherwise with the bari. It has a louder and somewhat more rasping sound than the bassoon and bass clarinet, though if played well I suppose it could do a creditable job with a transcribed bassoon or double-bass solo.

I know that tenors virtually never get any kind of exposed part. And often the tenor players are weaker sax players because the tenor is easier to play (badly) requiring less chops. It's a shame because a tenor really can sound beautiful, IMHO the best subsititute for a cello in a band. But for most of the tenor players I've played with in bands however, if I was transcribing a piece with a cello solo I would hesitate to give it to them, because they couldn't play a decent, singing, vibrating and well-intoned solo like a decent player of bassoon, clarinet, english horn or euphonium. It may be a vicious circle - the parts are undemanding and buried, so the players don't bother to develop a nice classical solo sound, so the arrangers continue to treat them as an afterthought.

Altos can be great solo instruments in a band. Think of that solo, I think it's "I'll Love My Love" from one of the Holst suites. But in my experience the 1st alto in a typical band usually has less of a legitimate, classical sound than the first chair flute, clarinet, oboe or english horn. I suppose it's because of most players' interest in jazz, and also due to lower expections from arrangers and band directors. I'm talking about community bands here, not bands at major music schools where the standards are uncompromising and you're more likely to hear a well-played classical alto solo.

I know one thing, if I turn my hand to arranging or transcribing, I have utterly lost any interest for doing things the usual way, with massive doubling. I'm sure that audiences and players will react better to a more sparse, demanding orchestration where you can hear all the sections and leads clearly, compared to the usual "wind stew". Give the divas and the hacks something challenging to work on and a reason to show up for rehearsal, instead of giving them an excuse to slack off and complain.

 

[Smokey613]

I know that tenors virtually never get any kind of exposed part. And often the tenor players are weaker sax players because the tenor is easier to play (badly) requiring less chops. It's a shame because a tenor really can sound beautiful, IMHO the best subsititute for a cello in a band. But for most of the tenor players I've played with in bands however, if I was transcribing a piece with a cello solo I would hesitate to give it to them, because they couldn't play a decent, singing, vibrating and well-intoned solo like a decent player of bassoon, clarinet, english horn or euphonium. It may be a vicious circle - the parts are undemanding and buried, so the players don't bother to develop a nice classical solo sound, so the arrangers continue to treat them as an afterthought.

If they could all play like this .....

 

[MartinMusicMan]

A classical musician once said to me, when I said I played sax, "they should never have put a reed on a brass instrument." The thing is, he was a flute player.