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Josh, I received the flutes from Phil today. I was pleasantly surprised by the Azumi that Phil decided to put in the box also. What a great flute! The Sankyo, was nice, but just didn't fit me. He only had a 6000 Sonare and not the 7000 to send me. I have to say I was very disappointed with it. On this particular model, I felt the mechanism was not all that great. It had a nice sound, but the body???

The Azumi was clearly the winner of the three that Phil sent me, but when I added the used Yamaha 574 that I have on consignment from FW I knew that was the one. I don't care for the EC on it at all, so I put my extra Williams head on it, and it plays with a nice sweet flexible and well focused sound. I used to play on a Yamaha 581 for years, so that might be why I am more comfortable with it. I am really impressed with the built and the smooth mechanism on it. I never remembered mine being that nice.

Now, I am just wondering if I should go for a newer 674 instead of the used one. I wonder if the newer 600 series is now even better then the used to be 500 series. Anyone know?
 
fluteragious said:
I did try a Burkart flute a couple of weeks ago. Very nice! I would really like to try the Brannen Millennium.
fluter- THANK YOU. :D I'd love to try a Brannen Mil too. Enjoy your search and quest. Thanks for thr responce,:cool:
 
Discussion starter · #107 ·
Further news on the hunt.
I tried the Muramatsu DS, SR, AD plus the Miyazawa hand made Boston Classic in silver and a Lehner hand made in line and off set G models.

The Muramatsu's were all great, various levels of sonic difference and repsonse were experienced when play testing them. The clear winner in terms of depth of tone, projection and for want of a better word, sheer grunt, was the SR. The tone was the most complex, the biggest and most resonant of the Muramatsu range. I didn't test any gold flutes as they were out of my price range.

The AD had the smallest sound which was mostly due to needing a repad, but it did articulate and repsond more quickly than the DS model. The SR had a similar response time and articulation tendencies to the AD model, the thicker, darker tone was very pleasant on the ears but the down side was that the note had a tendency to develop after you had played it, not immediately but a fraction later. This was disconcerting until you grew accustomed to this tendency.

The Miyazawa was fantastically beautifully built Flute, it oozed quality but the sound was light, bigger and darker than some of the lesser models but still light to my ears. The response and articulation where fantastic but it didn't have enough body to the sound for what I was looking for.

The darkest with the most immediate response in articulation was the Lehner flutes. The sound was very close to the Muramatsu but the response was instantaneous, fast tonguing passages where effortless, scale was impeccable and the sheer volume possible out of this flute was amazing. I then test drove an off set G model, one serial numebr before the inline G model, no straubinger pads this time, had the same response ad darkness of tone. The Straubingers made the FLute repsond slightly better, it was touch and go between the two of them but in the end I decided on the off set G Lehner fully hand made. Ironically it was the second cheapest of the Flutes I played. I have found what i am looking for and now I just have to learn how to get th efull potential out of this Flute. Pics to come in the coming weeks after I pick it up.
 
The Legacy I was referring to was my (Emerson) Boston Legacy ironwood piccolo, Bruce.

I've heard that the keywork on the Sonare flutes isn't all that wonderful, fluteragious. I am, however, extremely pleased with their altos and the new piccolo.

Sorry you didn't like the Sankyo...I guess they're not really for everyone! Interesting about the Azumi...but anything from the Altus camp can't be bad. (I think Altus is probably the most underrated flute maker on the map right now.)

Don't know what to tell you about the Yamaha...if you like the 574, then go for it! I haven't played any of the newest models, so I can't give a fair comparison.


Tim, the Flute Center of New York in Columbus Circle has some very nice Burkarts in stock right now that you could try. I played an extremely fantastic gold one the other day...Lillian is making unbelievable instruments. (And the piccs!!! OY!!)

Not a huge fan of the Brannen Millennium, but I'm not a big fan of Brannen flutes in general.

I can't wait to see your Lehner pics, Bootman! I've always wanted to play one, but I've as yet not been able to get my hands on one.

Congrats!
 
Bootman, my head that came with my hand made, top-of-the-range sterling Muramatsu about 20 years ago, is a huge disappointment by today's standards. The head on the Muramatsu EX and GX leaves it for dead. I don't think there is ANY current professional head that does not leave it for dead.

So in the light of the fact of manufacturers' heads changing over the years, pretty well always for the better, would it not be possible that a lot of the differences you find between different flutes may be caused by the age of the head.

Or are you comparing all these flutes using the same head.

If so, then then is it not a consideration that to SOME extend, a head is designed to match the design of the rest of the flute? I.e. you may be just mismatching for certain combinations?

I'm just wondering exactly how you are comparing these flutes, and how valid the comparisons actually are.

I fully acknowledge that comparing any pro flutes is a complicated matter.
 
Bootman said:
Lehner flutes ... Ironically it was the second cheapest of the Flutes I played. I have found what i am looking for and now I just have to learn how to get th efull potential out of this Flute. Pics to come in the coming weeks after I pick it up.
Super - thanks again for your detailed comments along the way. It helped me too find my flute. I finally sent that Jupiter 711 back... I liked everything about it except the wimpy sound. I finally did get a big foghorn bass out of it but it took such an extreme embouchure I've had sore jaw muscles from playing. Also the tone was still a tad soft overall. And even though it was based on Cooper scale and FAR better than my old 3SB, it still had an annoyingly sharp C# and slightly flat middle E and F and high B flat.

So I sent that 711 back (thanks to WWBW's generous 45 day return policy) and just picked up a slightly used (1 month old) Jupiter 1011 for $1200 USD. It has a better headjoint and a slightly different scale. This addresses the only two things I didn't like about the 711, so I hope this one is a keeper.

That 711 was a really nice flute... I really tried to like it. But every time I picked up my 3SB the tone was so much better and reminded my why I've been playing it for 16 years. If the 3SB didn't have such a horrible scale I would be keeping it. Now if the 1011 doesn't work out I may be looking at a Lehner ;)
 
Discussion starter · #112 ·
Gordon,
I have been using the supplied Head joint plus using my Gold/ Platinum head joint that is like wearing an old pair of worn in boots. I did try all the options available, all dynamic ranges, fast articulations, obscure techniques I could think of on all the instruments.

To All,

The AD was very good but compared to the SR, it was in a different league, even taking into account the variation in padding and the leaks. All the other flutes where brand new, set-up and speaking very nicely indeed. THe playing field was as leel as I could make it. In the end the biggest reason for chosing the Lehner over the Top end Sankyo HandMade, Muramatsu and Miyazawa was the price. These flutes were all so close, it was like splitting straws to find a difference and in the end I had to go with what felt right to me and what I was looking for in a Flute.

The Lehner I chose was out of 3 identical types of solid silver handmade flutes all within 5 serial numebrs of each other. I chose the biggest and darkest one I could, it was also the heaviest.

It might be time to offload a head joint or two. Any interest in a silver tube solid platinum chimney/ riser head joint of the John Lehner manufacture.
 
I regard to the Burkart, they have a drawn hole model in the $7K range which one of my former students bought. It was one of the best flutes I ever played. She paid around $7,300 with a C# trill and platinum riser. A rather sharp drop off on the front of the lip but still had a full sound.
 
Bootman said:
Gordon,
The AD was very good but compared to the SR, it was in a different league, even taking into account the variation in padding and the leaks. All the other flutes where brand new, set-up and speaking very nicely indeed. THe playing field was as leel as I could make it. In the end the biggest reason for chosing the Lehner over the Top end Sankyo HandMade, Muramatsu and Miyazawa was the price. These flutes were all so close, it was like splitting straws to find a difference and in the end I had to go with what felt right to me and what I was looking for in a Flute.
I also finally found my keeper flute - this Jupiter 1011. It has a D2 headjoint which suits me quite well - big bottom register with a singing midrange and sparkling top end that is *not* shrill. Big range in tone color and dynamics and easy to play. Intonation is even better than the 711 (which was pretty good to begin with). Exactly what I was looking for: tone, dynamics and playability as good or better than my trusty old 3SB with a superior scale and intonation.
 
Just going back a little in this mthread, to http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showthread.php? p=343984#post343984 , i.e:

MRC01 said:
........
At a masters class I saw Galway pick up a flute and say, "This is what a silver flute sounds like", then play a tune. Then he raised the same flute to his lips and said, "This is what a gold flute sounds like", play the same tune with a different tone color. Rampal has done the same.

So why did Rampal play a gold flute? Because flute makers spend greater care and attention building a $30k flute of gold, than when building a $10k flute of silver. No surprises there.

There is a legend that Albert Cooper once made a new headjoint and tested it out in front of a few fellow flute makers. He left the them spellbound wondering what it was: gold? platinum? a gold/platinum alloy? It was a melted down saucepan. His point - it's the geometry and cut, not the materials.....
... A similar Galway demo can be heard at "Platinum, Gold, Silver", at
http://www.thegalwaynetwork.com/vanclass/ubcclass.htm
 
Okay, forgive my questions but i have wondered the following:

1. If Mr.Galway was playing the same flute on that demo clip, and showing the different colors you can get out of the same flute, I wonder this--doesn't that support the argument that different materials would have a different sound? I get the drift that the intent is to show that the player will have more control over the tonal variations in the end, but was his intent to have each example sound audibly different?.

2. If he used the same flute for all the samples, what material was the flute?


I think its true that a player of a high caliber can most likely get any material flute to sound well, but isn't there a degree of additional work required to make a nickel plate flute produce the tone as compared to solid silver or other materials? I ask only because I seem to notice a difference between a solid flute and my nickel plate body flute--maybe the sound isn't noticeable but to me the response seems better on a solid body, which is why I somewhat regret only getting the nickel plate....
 
Okay, forgive my questions but i have wondered the following:

1. If Mr.Galway was playing the same flute on that demo clip, and showing the different colors you can get out of the same flute, I wonder this--doesn't that support the argument that different materials would have a different sound? I get the drift that the intent is to show that the player will have more control over the tonal variations in the end, but was his intent to have each example sound audibly different?.

2. If he used the same flute for all the samples, what material was the flute?


I think its true that a player of a high caliber can most likely get any material flute to sound well, but isn't there a degree of additional work required to make a nickel plate flute produce the tone as compared to solid silver or other materials? I ask only because I seem to notice a difference between a solid flute and my nickel plate body flute--maybe the sound difference isn't noticeable but to me the response seems better on a solid body, which is why I somewhat regret only getting the nickel plate....
 
My understanding was that there were three different flutes, and the sound pretty well identical from each. Galway says at the end that the first was platinum, then 24 Carat gold, and then a Yamaha 400 (sterling silver).

"I think its true that a player of a high calibre can most likely get any material flute to sound well, but isn't there a degree of additional work..."

Yes, it is more work to get a good sound from a more poorly DESIGNED flute. Whether the MATERIAL has anything to do with this is debatable.

"... I ask only because I seem to notice a difference between a solid flute and my nickel plate body flute"

It is likely that the DESIGN and control over the exact dimensions is likely to represent more effort in the solid silver flute than a nickel plated flute. The difference you perceive may well be nothing to do with the plating, and everything to do with design, and dimension control, at manufacture.

".... the sound isn't noticeable but to me the response seems better..."

Ah yes. The difference between SOUND, and RESPONSE is often overlooked. I am not aware of any controlled testing of response. "Response", to me, means how quickly, and easily, the flute does what the player wants it to do.
 
Thanks,

I wasn't sure of that--on the samples it switches between flutes so quickly I thought maybe he was playing the same flute differently each time and emulating the sound of the materials each time. Anyhow, I could hear sllight differences but of course the fundamental sound is Galway not the flute. Yes, Gordon, I think the focus should be on response not on sound alone...
 
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