Sax on the Web Forum banner
21 - 38 of 38 Posts

·
Registered
Soprano: 1983 Keilwerth Toneking Schenklaars stencil
Joined
·
929 Posts
Discussion Starter · #22 ·
ROFL!!! I better get four candles then.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,913 Posts
Have you no candle and sax to check for yourself?
Thanks for the "suggestion". If I had two (or four) candles, AND I wanted to do it myself, I sure as sh*t would have.

I can't discern from your post if the candles flickered or not. Is it being coy, or something I'm missing?

also, I don't own a straight soprano.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,073 Posts
I visited Antigua near San Antonio like three years ago. I spoke at length to the gentleman working there who said he was one of the lead designers for the pro one brand. He taught me some of the physics stuff about this soprano design specifically. From my best understanding the additional features are ponzol stuff, but the geometry and main horn is by this gentleman. He specifically explained something about the soprano neck. I would love to check it out now that it is available. Just putting in my two cents since I heard about this instruments production years ago.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,390 Posts
With a candle you can only "measure" the air speed. This air speed is oscillating and its mean value is very low -the flame is not curved, no surprise there. Now the real questions are
-with the candle, can we see the oscillation in the air speed (for example, does the flame appear to be thicker when you play) ?
-with more relevance to the original question, is the pressure oscillation sufficient to compromise the seal of the lowest pads ?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,016 Posts
Why is this so difficult? If the air column can push a pad cup open on the sides, then it should be able to make a candle flicker.

But no one has the means to test this but me??
 

·
Forum Contributor 2015-2017
Joined
·
4,125 Posts
But the air pressure cannot push the pad cup open.
Low air pressure differential at the supply to begin with, fighting
Beefy springs, big human hand forces, etc.
The air pressure from blowing is the size of a rounding error ...


But you would not need the air supply to make the pad cup move in order to make a candle flicker.

You WOULD need a fabulously large leak, very close proximity to the candle(s), and maybe some asbestos gloves.

With that kind of leaks, no candles needed.




Dat
Sax
Man
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,913 Posts
But the air pressure cannot push the pad cup open.
Low air pressure differential at the supply to begin with, fighting
Beefy springs, big human hand forces, etc.
The air pressure from blowing is the size of a rounding error ...

But you would not need the air supply to make the pad cup move in order to make a candle flicker.

You WOULD need a fabulously large leak, very close proximity to the candle(s), and maybe some asbestos gloves.

With that kind of leaks, no candles needed.

Dat
Sax
Man
Thoroughly confused by this post.

Would the additional arms simply allow a more evenly applied/distributed force onto the pad, reducing leaks when there is 'borderline' leak/issue with a cup/pad?
 

·
Forum Contributor 2015-2017
Joined
·
4,125 Posts
Thoroughly confused by this post.

Would the additional arms simply allow a more evenly applied/distributed force onto the pad, reducing leaks when there is 'borderline' leak/issue with a cup/pad?
Yes, the multiple arms *might* be able to provide more stability.

Breathing through the sax cannot cause a leak. Period.

Dsm
 

·
Registered
Soprano: 1983 Keilwerth Toneking Schenklaars stencil
Joined
·
929 Posts
Discussion Starter · #31 ·
Yes, the multiple arms *might* be able to provide more stability.

Breathing through the sax cannot cause a leak. Period.

Dsm
No one has said that air pushes open any pads.

If you read the Antigua ProOne literature and especially what Mr. Ponzol says, there is no mention of air causing leaks in the bell keys. Instead, the discussion centers on perfectly balancing the pads over the tone holes, so a technician can easily get a perfect seal. There is also mention that extra stability of the pad cups helps get rid of instability in the lower pitches.

What causes instability in the lower notes? Apparently, Mr. Ponzol had observed in his experience as an instrument designer that imperfect seals and the vibration of the horn causes micro-leaks that destabilize the low notes. This is the issue that double arms are designed to address, however double arms are notoriously difficult for techs to get perfect. Imperfectly balanced pad cups then tend to have imperfect seals, and you are back to square one. So, double arms have not solved this issue. The chicken feet or tridents as they are called is his solution.

It is hard for me to believe that someone as reputable as Peter Ponzol with his experience at Keilwerth and since, when asked to design this line of saxes from scratch would make up a solution to a problem that does not exist. As he says this was an opportunity to create a line of saxes that addressed all the problems with saxophones that he has seen over the years.

Seeking a better tone hole-pad seal and longer pad life, he also had rolled tone holes put on the whole horn. I call these rimmed or ringed tone holes because, strictly speaking, they are not actually rolled. In any case they also had saxes with normal tone holes. His observation was that sound was a lot more spread that the one without. This is coming from the guy who designed the bore of the SX90, one of the most spread sounding saxes around. He had them add the ringed tone holes onto their prototypes until they got the balance between a good solid core and with a little spread.

He also claims that the shape of the bore at the neck is specifically designed for better intonation, easier altissimo and more responsive octaves. He apparently believes that the tenon break and squeeze in the soprano is in just the wrong place, so a straight one-piece neck it is.

As I asked in the beginning, has anyone actually played one of these, especially the soprano? I can read the literature. i wanted to know if it live up to the hype. Pete said he like the tenors better than Selmers he had been testing. I have contacted all the music stores within a 3 hour drive, but no one has a soprano in stock.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,016 Posts
> No one has said that air pushes open any pads.

I'll take credit for that. Ponzol says @ 3:17 in the video "they tend to vibrate and flutter". I interpreted flutter to mean the flapping in the breeze rather than vibrations causing this tendency to flutter (definition below).

Why? Because I don't buy the story of your weak little pinky not being able to keep a single or double arm key from vibrating. After 50+ years of playing saxophones, I don't feel any vibratory sensation causing pad cup wobble. The only vibration problems come on Eb/C rollers. It defies my logic and raise my BS alert.

Funny how the phenomena never came up much in conversation over the years prior to the invention. But they look cool.

Flutter
1: to flap the wings rapidly <butterflies fluttering among the flowers>
2a : to move with quick wavering or flapping motions <a sail fluttering in the wind>
b : to vibrate in irregular spasms <his heart fluttered>
 

·
Out of Office
Grafton + TH & C alto || Naked Lady 10M || TT soprano || Martin Comm III
Joined
·
30,105 Posts
The only vibration problems come on Eb/C rollers. It defies my logic and raise my BS alert.
I've known side Bb vibrations to be an issue also.

I would have thought that if it's vibrations in the body of the saxophone causing the need for the chicken feet, then it woud be better to sort out the eason for those vibrations being caused. ie fix the cause of the problem not just band-aid the symptoms.

Pete said he like the tenors better than Selmers he had been testing. I have contacted all the music stores within a 3 hour drive, but no one has a soprano in stock.
I would go further and say that after the Selmers, the Antigua completely bowled me over. Which is interesting because I really like some Selmers.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,659 Posts
As I asked in the beginning, has anyone actually played one of these, especially the soprano?
That was in your first thread on the ProOne sop, and you learned that the answer is no. This thread was supposed to be for speculation about the features.

Look, someone has to be the trailblazer when a brand-new model appears. If you're really interested in this sax, just order one and try it out. It's not that expensive. You may love it. The worst that can happen is you won't like it, and will have to resell it. You'll take a loss, but it won't be gigantic.
 

·
Registered
Soprano: 1983 Keilwerth Toneking Schenklaars stencil
Joined
·
929 Posts
Discussion Starter · #35 ·
That was in your first thread on the ProOne sop, and you learned that the answer is no. This thread was supposed to be for speculation about the features.

Look, someone has to be the trailblazer when a brand-new model appears. If you're really interested in this sax, just order one and try it out. It's not that expensive. You may love it. The worst that can happen is you won't like it, and will have to resell it. You'll take a loss, but it won't be gigantic.
My apologies, you are right. I did not realize to which thread I was responding.

The street price on the sopranos is at least $2750. That is a lot to me right now, and for that much, there a lot of options in used saxes in great condition.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,659 Posts
The street price on the sopranos is at least $2750. That is a lot to me right now, and for that much, there a lot of options in used saxes in great condition.
Buy it from a British dealer and ship it here. Have you seen the Antigua prices over there? At sax.co.uk, the ProOne Alto is $1499, and the ProOne tenor is only $1688. Just wait for the soprano to appear.
 

·
Out of Office
Grafton + TH & C alto || Naked Lady 10M || TT soprano || Martin Comm III
Joined
·
30,105 Posts
My apologies, you are right. I did not realize to which thread I was responding.

The street price on the sopranos is at least $2750. That is a lot to me right now, and for that much, there a lot of options in used saxes in great condition.
It is a huge amount to spend on something you haven't even tried out, and will depreciate hugely as soon as you play it. Obviously used is better value, but I would also say these days there are better new instruments around.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
164 Posts
Recognizing the thread has been dormant for a while, I have an Alto version of this horn received at the beginning of the year from Windblowers in the UK for a practical price relative to what they go for in the U.S. I also have a fairly new Cannonball Stone series alto as a reference. Both horns are put together very well, I was not able to detect any play in the rods, something I could not say for the New Buffet 400 I had at one point among other things. Both horns play wonderful for me and I say that after a considerable amount of time on them instead of during the "Honeymoon" period where the newness tends to cloud judgement. I was floored by my level of contentedness with the Cannonball, especially after trying the fat neck which gave me the free blowing, low resistance play that I desire most. I wanted the Pro One mostly because I liked the way it looked along with its uniqueness in design.

Turns out it plays with the same freeness that the Fat neck does, no doubt the result of Mr. Ponzol's influence, and an added plus is that it is noticeably lighter than the Cannonball not that weight was a problem for me. The Antigua is also sprung tighter than the Cannonball which translates into the ability to play a little faster for me and although I adore the wide spatula style low level right F# keys of the Cannonball like those of the Yamaha 875, the variation from that arrangement with the Antigua was not a problem at all to adjust to. I really like that style of key which is a comfort focus for me.

The pads don't stick at all on either horn, something I couldn't say for my JK EX90 III, or the Buffet 400 which really had it bad except for the lighter fluid treatment which had to be repeated throughout ownership. The G# lift did its job, the Cannonball has a G# and low C# lift but they are hidden flat springs that are referred to as "relief springs" that lift those keys, so they went unnoticed until I cleaned the horn. Both horns feel quite comfortable in my hands and as much as I like the Cannonball, I spend 95% of the time playing the Antigua.

As for the Trident arms, they're a real eye catcher to me, however, they do have the tendency to remind me that they are there at the bump stop where the added weight of the key can generate a little more thump that can be felt through the horn. The beautifully machined screws present at the unique locations have to be checked periodically until the horn settles in play as I had two start to come loose, one of which resulted in a mild tin like sound and was hard to track down. Once they were addressed and the horn oiled, the mechanisms played smooth as butter. I really like the horn and am very happy with it after 8 months of ownership.
 
21 - 38 of 38 Posts
Top