[ErikJon]

Hello, friends.

I am an intermediate-level solo performer, trying to come up with good practice routines, until I get good.

I play my scales, I add new songs to my repertoire. I learn patters. I practice classical sight-reading, and so on. No long-tone practice, so far, but I hope to start soon.

Sometimes, however, I find myself with a nice song for which I have a good backing track, but I realize that the sheet music is in the wrong key for that particular backing track. So, instead of dropping everything and transposing the sheet music, or trying to find a soundtrack in the right key, out of curiosity, I just ignore the sheet music and try to play the song by ear. I make lots of mistakes as I go, all depending on the key, but I feel that it is somehow going to be a useful exercise, in the long run. Some might even say "obviously so."

However, I cannot say that I have noticed any miraculous improvement in my ability to play by ear, during the 17 years that I have been playing, teaching myself. Maybe I just don't remember how far I've come, and maybe it just depends on how nervous I was at the time. Maybe I'm playing a little bette, only because I have become a little more confident. I don't know. I am also getting older, and my memory and ability to learn new things is not what it was before. I am so slow that I still cannot pick out the basic chords by ear in an ordinary 12-bar-blues song.

My question to you more expert professional players, is this: assuming I continue to practice my scales and other things, on the side, of how much value could I really expect such play-along-by-ear exercises to be, in the long run?

In other words, theoretically, if I picked out a new soundtrack for a new song every day, BUT each time in a new key, and tried to pick out the whole melody by ear, and then tried to guess the chords and improvise the following choruses by ear, is this really going to help MUCH, in the long run, as opposed to the normal routine of playing what I read and improvising using written chord symbols?

Do you see drawbacks? What are the pros and cons?

Or would you just say, "It's useful to throw one exercise into your practice routine daily, but you will make faster progress going with written materials, in the long run?"

Sorry if this sounds like a dumb question.

 

[bokagee]

Ear training was a big part of our studies back in school, but we didn't start by earballing entire tunes. We'd set up in class with a rhythm section and a bunch of horns, the instructor would have index cards with chord symbols on them that he'd show only to the rhythm section, and the chord would be changed every 4 bars to whatever kind of groove. We'd each do four chords each, improvising as best we could, letting our ears inform us what the chords were, along with some intial fumbling around to figure it out. We got better as time went on, recognizing chord qualities by the way they sound, most of us using tibre association to start knowing what the key of the chord was. Some claimed perfect pitch, it was a bragging rights kind of thing back then. You hear a pitch, you imagine it coming out of your tenor, you anticipate what the timbre would be, and pick D instead of C# based on that.

In a self-study scenario, I'd imagine there are play-along materials that could facsimilate the same sort of thing. I haven't done play-alongs in a real long time though, I can't refer you to anything beyond Aeborsold. Anyone know of some online resources that could do things like this?

 

[dexdex]

INvaluable.

I’m no pro player. I’m lazy and busy with enough other stuff normal life asks for to neglect my horn homework. I listen to music as much as I can. Most of my rare homework time is dedicated to learn band parts by reading scores, and “borrowing” phrases from my favorites jazz heroes to play the solos I have, by ear. I cannot imagine any other way to do it. I’m too lazy and a poor reader to take the time to transcribe the solos to written form (I know I should), so the ears 👂 are ... invaluable. And they improve by themselves ! Just make sure you chose the right music.

Another point I’m realizing recently while learning some comping basics on guitar: the ears help you to improvise naturally over chords changes, and not individual chords. As a horn player, I never worried about 2 chords per bar on the A of Rhythm Changes, I just kept in mind it had to resolve somehow. The paper doesn’t tell you that. The ears do.

3rd aspect, maybe the most obvious: the written form of transcribed alto solos by let’s say Phil Woods, Cannonball and Sonny Stitt might be tricky to tell apart. Play 10 seconds of audio of any of them, most of us will get them right. This relates to how they play, and not what. And this is written nowhere. Only by ear.

 

[SuperAction80]

UNvaluable.

I'm no pro player. I'm lazy and busy with enough other stuff normal life asks for to neglect my horn homework. I listen to music as much as I can. Most of my rare homework time is dedicated to learn band parts, reading scores, and "borrowing" phrases from my favorites jazz heroes to play the solos I have, by ear. I cannot imagine any other way to do it. I'm too lazy and a poor reader to take the time to transcribe the solos to written form (I know I should), so the ears ? are ... invaluable. And they improve by themselves ! Just make sure you chose the right music.

Another point I'm realizing recently while learning some comping basics on guitar: the ears help you to improvise naturally over chords changes, and not individual chords. As a horn player, I never worried about 2 chords per bar on the A of Rhythm Changes, I just kept in mind it had to resolve somehow. The paper doesn't tell you that. The ears do.

I think this applies to a good many players, and even professionals. On the gig, things change. A singer may change the key of the song, or someone may call a song that you don't know. Knowing how to read, or using chord/chart apps are helpful. Knowing how to hear, and what you're hearing, will get you through more gigs. That makes you more versatile, which in turn gets you more gigs. So, in short, don't stop what you're already doing, but keep on picking out parts by ear. There's no real shortcut to it. The more you do it, the more your mind will make associations, the easier it will become.

 

[JL]

In other words, theoretically, if I picked out a new soundtrack for a new song every day, BUT each time in a new key, and tried to pick out the whole melody by ear, and then tried to guess the chords and improvise the following choruses by ear, is this really going to help MUCH, in the long run, as opposed to the normal routine of playing what I read and improvising using written chord symbols?

What you're describing there would be biting off too much all at once, at least at first. But to do this you have to get away from the written page. Can you at least memorize a tune after reading it a few times, then turning away from the written page and playing each phrase by ear until you get the whole melody down? That would be a start. It's also valuable to learn how to transpose by ear, taking a SIMPLE short musical phrase or lick and playing it (by ear) through several keys. Also work on taking a single phrase, or even one or two notes, off a recording by ear without any sheet music, working up to learning an entire melody or head arrangement by ear that way (might take a while, but you'll get better at it the more you do it).

Can you think in 'numbers'? In other words, it helps if you know a song or phrase starts on the tonic (the "1") or the "5" or whatever note it starts on in a given key.* Then you can start on the same scale degree in another key. Ear training, singing intervals, etc, is very helpful.

It takes time and practice, just like everything else, but if you stick with it you'll get there. This is a bigger topic than can be covered adequately in a few posts on this site; you can find plenty of advice here, but ultimately you have to put in the time.

Anyway, yes it's highly valuable to learn to play by ear. Maybe not so important if you are never going to be in a situation without sheet music in front of you. But if you want to improvise or play in a band where you have to play by ear, then obviously you need to know how to do that.

*Be sure to learn & memorize, be able to play by ear, all 12 major scales up, down, in patterns, inside out, etc and know each and every scale degree (for ex, know instantly that the '4' of C maj scale is F, the '6' is A, the '2' is D; in the key of F#, the '5' is C#, the '2' is G#, etc. Every key. This is the starting point; it all has to be in your head.

 

[dexdex]

This discussion reminds me of what I’ve seen a pro trumpet player, longtime friend of mine, doing during his daily practice. He had the main local radio on, with let’s say 70% of talk time and 30% music. During talk sequences, he did his scheduled shedding, and as soon as there was music, mainly mainstream pop stuff, he played with it. And then, back to his scales until the next piece of music. Would be curious what the latest neuroscience experts would find out checking out someone doing this in real time.

 

[saxoclese]

It helps to have scales in all keys under your fingers and know intervals. That means you can identify the interval between two notes when you hear one, and to be able to play any interval up or down from a given note. This gives you the foundation. The next step for me is to have the tune in my head, which means I can sing it from memory. The next step is to choose a key and/or starting note and go slow. It gets faster and easier the more you do it and it helps to begin with easier and more melodic tunes.

When I was growing up and and first learning to play the saxophone the closest music store was over 100 miles away. If there was a song I liked on a record, I learned to play it by ear. I didn't know it at the time but I was also learning style and playing in tune with an ensemble by playing along. Yakkety Sax, Take Five, and Desafinao were just a few of the songs I learned that way. Now 60 years later I can still play those songs at the drop of a hat. Young players today can bring up hundreds of songs with just a click of a mouse, or by ordering a "Real Book" on Amazon. Perhaps technology makes it too easy.

 

[1saxman]

The deal is, can you hum a tune and have it be recognizable and mostly in tune? Do you whistle songs? If yes, than you should be able to figure out how to play some simple songs after a few sax lessons. If you can't just hum or whistle a tune, you won't be able to play one on any instrument unless you have the music to read. I've seen some monster players (many) who could not stand up and play 'Mary Had A Little Lamb' without the music in front of them. So, you can learn to play very well with very little actual musical talent, but you will never be able to just play, which is the basis of improvising. You could learn to play some of the most iconic sax solos of all time because you can get the music for them. You can also memorize music - there are ways around having a tin ear.
Having the ability to hear something and turn around and play it is great, but I really wish I had paid more attention to reading, which is much more important in the long run for future employment as a sax player. Fortunately, I'm way past the point of worrying about any employment - I guess that's good.

 

[ErikJon]

Wow. Great advice, gentlemen.

So, I'll go easy with this concept, and so it is, worth my time, then.

I can't imagine how a guy could practice with talk radio going in the background, but God bless him.

Yes, I am very good about remembering tunes mentally, humming and whistling them, and picking them out on the instrument, albeit slowly sometimes. I was just wondering if I would eventually get it down to a fine art by merely working this into my daily practice routine.

I know all of my major, minor, pentatonic and blues scales, arpeggios for all, diminished and whole-tone arpeggios, but I cannot identify the degrees of any, and shamefully, even though I can play these scales forward and backward, sometimes while reading a score I confuse the C# major and F# major scales, in terms of remembering which has the B# for example, and may hit a wrong note the first time around before I am painfully reminded.

In fact, I've been struggling just to remember the basic chords of 12-bar blues in any key, and can't quite remember fast enough to start playing within the chord on time, to say nothing of creating something interesting to play there.

I am not good with intervals, either, except maybe V-I.

Occasionally I download an app for chord and interval recognition but frankly I never get around to sitting down to use it.

I've got that nice book of exercises by Eric Marienthal, however, and he makes a special point of giving me lots to pracice along the lines of intervals and patterns with the most common scales, so I cannot help but believe that it will be helpful.

I have been practicing transposing short, two or three-measure patterns by ear, in all 12 keys, off and on, for years. In some cases I have practiced the same pattern on seven or eight different occasions in 12 keys, during a three year period. Unfortunately they never stick for more than a a few weeks, and never come out in my playing, which has me worried, but I'm sure the practice will be helpful in the long run.

I thought I had recalled hearing that the great saxophonists of yesteryear had spent hundreds of hours playing along with LPs to memorize solos, so it only seems logical that it would help my mind to get to know the instrument better and the intervals, as I jump around from one note to another.

I just needed to hear your feedback, just in case I was overlooking anything. I appreciate your comments greatly.

 

[Grumps]

Just put on some music you like and play along with it. Not tracks. Not instructional recordings. Just music. Any kind of music. Listen to it. Tune your horn and find the notes. Play along with the melody. Try some harmony. Embellish it a bit. It's all good.

You still gotta know your theory. But don't ever forget to have fun, and do your own thing; and potentially pick up the ability to be able to just jump up and sit in with nearly anyone. Just don't step on the vocals... or the other solos. In real time that is.

 

[Saxophone Strange]

I would say to go listen to Hal Galper on this. I would agree with him that you really can’t play something you can’t hear. That being said, it’s more pertinent to make sure you are expanding your intake as much as you “practice”.

 

[ErikJon]

Nice advice. Thank you.

 

[JL]

In fact, I've been struggling just to remember the basic chords of 12-bar blues in any key, and can't quite remember fast enough to start playing within the chord on time, to say nothing of creating something interesting to play there.

One thing you can do to help on this is to put on a recording of a standard, basic 12 bar blues (B.B. King, Albert King, Albert Collins, and a thousand other examples) and count the bars out in 4/4 time. This will allow to find and HEAR exactly where the chords change. Do this over and over with dozens of blues tunes and you'll eventually be able to hear it very clearly. This also applies to other song forms of course.

I'm not sure what it is you are forgetting. You only need to remember 3 chords (I7, IV7, V7). Of course not all blues tunes stick to this exact 'formula' and jazz blues will add or substitute chords, but once you get the basic structure down you can hear these alterations. It sounds like you are simply having trouble hearing where the chords change, so try the suggestion above (you can tap the beats out with your foot).

 

[ErikJon]

Thank you. On the contrary, I'm very good at listening and recognizing where the chords are changing, including the very subtle changes and chord substitutions. When I'm not good at remembering is the name of the chord. unlike some musicians I never had a jazz course per se and never had drills in this area and so maybe I just need some self-discipline to sit down and memorize those typical cord structures.

thank you for all of your suggestions. I think you have given me enough to work with for now.

 

[JL]

When I'm not good at remembering is the name of the chord.

Thanks for clarifying. Ok, one more tip regarding knowing the chords and then I'll leave it alone:

I-IV-V in various keys:

key of C: C7 F7 G7

key of A: A7 C#7 E7

key of G: G7 C7 D7

key of F#: F#7 B7 C#7

And so on. Go through all the keys in your head, thinking of the names of the I7, IV7, V7 chords until you can instantly name them without thinking about it. Eventually you'll be able to PLAY them without having to think about it.

 

[Saxophone Strange]

Interesting... I think your question perhaps is relevant to something more... subjective. So if you are thinking about improvisation, you have to remind yourself that it is basically composition on the spot translated through your technical understanding of your horn. I mentioned beforehand that listening is definitely key but it sounds like there is more to it for you (though I still maintain the listening comment).
When you are in your daily life and you find yourself with a tune in your head or a lick, do you record yourself singing it? Then you can go back and write them down (but keep the recording). Then pick some in your practice and work them. Don’t work them into a song. That is impossible. Work them into your muscle memory and your ears. Then it will work itself out in your playing.
Also work on actual composing... And by that scope arranging and thus theory. Use one to inspire the other. As you become a more proficient composer your will become a more proficient improviser if you are also working on your technique... you know, that whole athlete of the small muscles thing.

 

[whaler]

I’ve had some of my musicians from Cuba tell me they don’t give the kids instruments until they see if they can do solfeggio.
Here we’ll give them doctorates even if they can’t play well as long as they finish their paper requirements.

 

[Saxophone Strange]

I had real issues until I left my more academic program and went down to play with anybody and everybody in New Orleans. Then a few years later I had the pleasure of meeting Ernie Watts and getting to pick his brain a bit. Now that cat... he hard as a coffin nail when it comes to practice.

 

[Dave Pollack]

Here we'll give them doctorates even if they can't play well as long as they finish their paper requirements.

100%...there are tons of horrendous players that are music educators, have advanced degrees, etc. It's pretty crazy!

 

[saxoclese]

There are many degrees in music and music education besides those in performance, and they are just as important. In my experience some of the best players do not make the best teachers because everything came so naturally and easily to them when they were learning to play. Some don't have the personal or social skills to relate to students or the ability to clearly articulate concepts and what is involved in the "mechanics" of playing.