[buddy lee]

This post is spawned from a discussion I saw elsewhere, but it got me thinking and I wanted to throw some ideas out there and see what your thoughts were. Someone took offense to the knee-jerk reaction of a lot of internet sax experts to almost always suggest Yamaha saxophones to new players, or to people who aren't able to go to a store and try multiple horns. This person's point was that there are many brands being made in Asia right now that offer better value and with build quality that can rival that of Yamaha.

The Yamaha supporters admit this, however, their points are that you will lose 50% of your investment if you end up deciding to sell this saxophone later (especially if it's not one of the more better known Asia brands), and that generally speaking, with Yamaha you know what you're going to get quality-wise.

So this made me wonder, how a new brand even has a shot to succeed in this day and age?

I think the first step is-

In lieu of a robust retail network, you better offer a no-hassle return policy. If you expect someone to take a chance on your brand, especially if the money is not insignificant, and you stand behind what you're selling, this should be a no-brainer (but often times it's not)


How else would you do it? I know we have many posters here running their own saxophone product businesses and maybe they don't want to give up their secrets, but, I've always wondered how you stand out in the sea of companies out there making horns and mouthpieces (dozens of companies now).

 

[wanderso]

Why would you want to?

Is there a significant unmet demand for beginner saxophones yet limited supply from the established, reputable (I use that word deliberately) brands?

Are there innovative disruptions in design or materials or assembly that have yet to be realized?

If you were looking for a business opportunity, would you put your stakes into a new internet search engine or a novel social media platform or a web-based retail store?

I completely understand various entities with significant expertise who spec horns from foreign anonymous low-labor-cost production and then add their own value in some fashion such as final set-up. This makes sense for both boutique shops and large-market retail vendors who benefit from a store brand with high margins.

But a beginner, who can't tell a great horn from acceptable, just that the horn plays OK and reliably stays in playable condition, and pieces don't fall off, or not? And with parents most often paying for said horn for young learners, aware of the resale market, and influenced by band directors and (US, anyway) the Conn-Selmer or Yamaha distributor marketing blitzes? What is their incentive to gamble?

Jay Metcalf and probably others have published entertaining videos where they review or compare ultra-low-cost horns bought from Amazon and often find the one they received is OK. Great anecdote! Me, I would not bet my money that if I ordered from the exact same product page I'd receive a horn even made in the same Chinese factory, much less a satisfactory instrument. The established brands have their historical reputations--which they safeguard through quality and customer service over the long term--for good reasons, in my opinion.

 

[LostConn]

So this made me wonder, how a new brand even has a shot to succeed in this day and age?

Two preliminary questions:

1. What constitutes a "new brand"? Is it necessary to design and manufacture one's own saxophones in one's own factories, like the traditional, historically successful saxophone and woodwind companies, or it is enough simply to place an order with a Taiwanese or Chinese factory and apply a new logo to the instruments?

2. What level of "success" is required? Global distribution and sales? Significant distribution and sales in a major national market? Just enough business to keep the owner busy in his/her living room? There seems to be a thin line between a failed Internet-based sole proprietorship selling saxes (e.g., Viking) and a still-breathing Internet-based sole proprietorship selling saxes (e.g., Phil Barone). But in terms of overall success as a brand (not horn quality), could either of them ever be discussed in the same breath as Selmer Paris, Yamaha, or Yanagisawa?

My suggestion for a good case study is P. Mauriat. The brand does not have a genuine historical pedigree (the name is pure marketing invention), but in a couple of decades the company apparently has achieved good worldwide market penetration and a reasonable degree of respect among players.

 

[JayeLID]

Why would you want to?

Is there a significant unmet demand for beginner saxophones yet limited supply from the established, reputable (I use that word deliberately) brands?

Are there innovative disruptions in design or materials or assembly that have yet to be realized?

If you were looking for a business opportunity, would you put your stakes into a new internet search engine or a novel social media platform or a web-based retail store?

I completely understand various entities with significant expertise who spec horns from foreign anonymous low-labor-cost production and then add their own value in some fashion such as final set-up. This makes sense for both boutique shops and large-market retail vendors who benefit from a store brand with high margins.

But a beginner, who can't tell a great horn from acceptable, just that the horn plays OK and reliably stays in playable condition, and pieces don't fall off, or not? And with parents most often paying for said horn for young learners, aware of the resale market, and influenced by band directors and (US, anyway) the Conn-Selmer or Yamaha distributor marketing blitzes? What is their incentive to gamble?

Jay Metcalf and probably others have published entertaining videos where they review or compare ultra-low-cost horns bought from Amazon and often find the one they received is OK. Great anecdote! Me, I would not bet my money that if I ordered from the exact same product page I'd receive a horn even made in the same Chinese factory, much less a satisfactory instrument. The established brands have their historical reputations--which they safeguard through quality and customer service over the long term--for good reasons, in my opinion.

These are really good points. I guess a potential answer to these points (and not a great answer) would be:

Because currently a GOOD, reputed, affordable NEW sax (say an Alto) is gonna cost what ? around $1200 ?

...there isn't much point in creating a new sax brand/model if your price point is going to be $1000+.

$1200 may seem ridiculously 'affordable' to some, but of course, it isn't really. Thus many are stuck with Cecilio, Lade, or Walmart.

So, a new brand would have a shot at succeeding (in the student market) by offering a horn for $800 new, and having the cojones to send it to numerous respected internet tech review people (say Stephen Howard or Matt Stohrer off the top of my head) and have those horns be GOOD enough to get a favorable review.

Then - an aggressive marketing scheme backed by good protection. THIS would succeed.

If the above seems highly implausible, it probably is. You are gonna contract a factory to produce a really good, precision instrument with few if any short-cuts, and somehow market it at a below-new market price. In conventional terms...how is that gonna be possible ?

For the opposite spectrum - uber-high-end instruments, no such challenge exists beyond just producing a sax of exquisite sonic and mechanical engineering...and marketing it.
Of course, the potential owners of such only comprise perhaps 1% of the sax-playing population...so the degree of 'success' of the endeavor would not be measured by sales or popularity.

 

[buddy lee]

Why would you want to?

Is there a significant unmet demand for beginner saxophones yet limited supply from the established, reputable (I use that word deliberately) brands?

Are there innovative disruptions in design or materials or assembly that have yet to be realized?

If you were looking for a business opportunity, would you put your stakes into a new internet search engine or a novel social media platform or a web-based retail store?

I completely understand various entities with significant expertise who spec horns from foreign anonymous low-labor-cost production and then add their own value in some fashion such as final set-up. This makes sense for both boutique shops and large-market retail vendors who benefit from a store brand with high margins.

But a beginner, who can't tell a great horn from acceptable, just that the horn plays OK and reliably stays in playable condition, and pieces don't fall off, or not? And with parents most often paying for said horn for young learners, aware of the resale market, and influenced by band directors and (US, anyway) the Conn-Selmer or Yamaha distributor marketing blitzes? What is their incentive to gamble?

Jay Metcalf and probably others have published entertaining videos where they review or compare ultra-low-cost horns bought from Amazon and often find the one they received is OK. Great anecdote! Me, I would not bet my money that if I ordered from the exact same product page I'd receive a horn even made in the same Chinese factory, much less a satisfactory instrument. The established brands have their historical reputations--which they safeguard through quality and customer service over the long term--for good reasons, in my opinion.

I wouldn't want to myself, but apparently people do, and I see new brands popping up in the horn, mouthpiece, reed, and other accessories realms. I personally would have no problem buying a horn from an unknown maker if the price was right and I could play it first. That's the problem with 99% of these brands is lack of access to them.

Two preliminary questions:

1. What constitutes a "new brand"? Is it necessary to design and manufacture one's own saxophones in one's own factories, like the traditional, historically successful saxophone and woodwind companies, or it is enough simply to place an order with a Taiwanese or Chinese factory and apply a new logo to the instruments?

2. What level of "success" is required? Global distribution and sales? Significant distribution and sales in a major national market? Just enough business to keep the owner busy in his/her living room? There seems to be a thin line between a failed Internet-based sole proprietorship selling saxes (e.g., Viking) and a still-breathing Internet-based sole proprietorship selling saxes (e.g., Phil Barone). But in terms of overall success as a brand (not horn quality), could either of them ever be discussed in the same breath as Selmer Paris, Yamaha, or Yanagisawa?

My suggestion for a good case study is P. Mauriat. The brand does not have a genuine historical pedigree (the name is pure marketing invention), but in a couple of decades the company apparently has achieved good worldwide market penetration and a reasonable degree of respect among players.

1. "New Brand" meaning any new company that pops up whether they are making their own gear or having it made for them, it doesn't matter. Both would have the same hurdles to jump that I mentioned.

2. Success is personal and would need to be defined by the individual company, but I guess for this purpose I'd say a profitable company that has enough traction to stay in business for 5+ years.

Cannonball has done essentially the same thing as Mauriat. But even with those two better-known commodities you're going to lose 50% of your investment if you sell used later on.

 

[zapatista]

How about Jean Paul as a model for "How to Succeed as a Saxophone Brand" in the current market environment? I've only bought a couple Jean Paul alto horns but actually do have experience with them and have taken one apart and put it back together next to a $150 "Lade" alto. They're better constructed and "maintainable" horns IMO. To be fair, I haven't done any research in to if they are profitable or a public or private entity.

1. Chinese Made (point of discussion here for an offering price-wise)
2. Retail price point of ~$500 for an alto and ~$700 tenor
3. Good aftermarket support--a real warranty/customer service and regular parts supply
4. Differentiated product compared to cheaper or comparable-priced Chinese competition i.e. Lade/Ammoon/Cecilio
5. Sustained market presence beyond amazon/eBay. Certainly long enough to establish decent retail channels (Costco, etc...)
6. Decent reviews from more than one "respected" professional
7. Tiered products exist (I have no experience/ancedotal evidence of their "professional" offerings)

 

[JayeLID]

How about Jean Paul as a model for "How to Succeed as a Saxophone Brand" in the current market environment? I've only bought a couple Jean Paul alto horns but actually do have experience with them and have taken one apart and put it back together next to a $150 "Lade" alto. They're better constructed and "maintainable" horns IMO.

1. Chinese Made (point of discussion here for an offering price-wise)
2. Retail price point of ~$500 for an alto and ~$700 tenor
3. Good aftermarket support--a real warranty/customer service and regular parts supply
4. Differentiated product compared to cheaper or comparable-priced Chinese competition i.e. Lade/Ammoon/Cecilio
5. Sustained market presence beyond amazon/eBay. Certainly long enough to establish decent retail channels (Costco, etc...)
6. Decent reviews from more than one "respected" professional
7. Tiered products exist (I have no experience/ancedotal evidence of their professional offerings)

"respected" professional would need to be someone beyond a tech who has a good rep regionally....it'd probably need to be someone with a significant internet presence - thus my two suggestions.

Now for me....IF, for example, an SH review came back on one of these which was favorable....and customer service and available parts supply could be confirmed....I will go along with you and the premise of the thread that this could be considered a successful launch.

I think there'd be an issue within the musicians community of Costco being one of their retail channels however. This starts getting into another challenge which I had not considered previously:

So, an endeavor manages to contract an asian factory which CAN in fact produce a horn of higher precision and dependability, yet offer it at a-bit-above-cheap-chinese-budget-horn pricetag$.
Would it then be a challenge to overcome the "this is a cheap new chinese made horn which sells at Costco, etc" identity/association which would likely fall upon it (even though the reason would be more of an associative, non-tangible one) ?

 

[zapatista]

I'm not trying to be a shill for Jean Paul USA BTW-at least on a superficial level their business model addresses many of the points of this thread "conversation." If anything, I'm more of a Conn/Martin dork/devotee. I'm still not convinced on King yet G (as a side note).

 

[Pete Thomas]

Cannonball has done essentially the same thing as Mauriat. But even with those two better-known commodities you're going to lose 50% of your investment if you sell used later on.

Same applies to buying anything new.

Do you buy a new car worrying about losing 50% of your investment later on? No because there is no way buying a car, or a saxophone, is an investment unless you want to gamble on the collectibles market.

 

[Hipparion]

So, if feels like the saxophone market has been taken by storm by the Chinese industry. And for quite some time now.
Does anyone know if it has been the same for other instruments ? Trumpets ? Trombone ? Clarinets ? Guitars ? etc

I am asking because I don't really know, and my ignorance is actually making me feel that the saxophone world is quite specifically targeted.
Also, it seems to me that the saxophone has been 'of fashion' for quite some time these years in that particular part of Asia (I think I have encountered information about such a trend at least twice, not that it makes it true, or even reliable information, but at least it may not be completely outlandish).

That 'local' interest would actually explain why so many manufacturers would have blossomed these last decades.
Sure, the reduced costs are also a valid reason to produce music instruments there, but does that alone explains how it all started ? Did they multiply the production sites of such a niche product (the saxophone) just because there was a gain from western countries to be made ? Or is a more local interest helping to sustain such diversity in the saxophone gear production ?

Without more information, and without discarding the interest of making a profit by selling worldwide, I find it makes more sense to me that the Asian sax products industry did flourish because their primary market was local. If anyone has proof otherwise, I will be interested and happy to stand corrected.

Now, how are these reflexions related to the present topic ?

One point I am trying to make here is that some ideas developed in this thread seem (to me) really western-country centered. The recognition of brand X in the Americas or in Europe may or may not have anything to do with the real success of brand X.

For one thing, to think that the opinions and economy developed in the western countries are still worldwide prevalent today (as they were in the past) may be realistic, or a huge mistake. As could be to think that they always will be.

Another thing is about the very definition of success. What does it mean ? Assuming we could agree on some definition, would they be valid in Asia ?
As an example, would a factory producing saxophones for only a short period of time, making big bucks by selling all its production and then moving on to another product (or simply vanishing) be deemed a failure or a success ?

Inconvenient as these ideas may be (to us), I wonder what amount of truth lies in them...

 

[Tranechaser]

I think you will be a smashing success if you include 2 new pairs of white gloves with a new horn instead of 1.

 

[zapatista]

I think you will be a smashing success if you include 2 new pairs of white gloves with a new horn instead of 1.

 

[Reet McVouty]

Same applies to buying anything new.

Do you buy a new car worrying about losing 50% of your investment later on? No because there is no way buying a car, or a saxophone, is an investment unless you want to gamble on the collectibles market.

Exactly! I bought my Cannonball inadvertently. I was working out of town and on a day off I went to a music store to try some mouthpieces. Since I was out of town I didn't have my horn so they gave me a Cannonball to use. I did buy a mouthpiece, and when I came home I went to a local dealer and bought a Cannonball alto. Not once did I consider the re-sale value of either the horn or the mouthpiece.

 

[Wonko]

Because currently a GOOD, reputed, affordable NEW sax (say an Alto) is gonna cost what ? around $1200 ?

...there isn't much point in creating a new sax brand/model if your price point is going to be $1000+.

$1200 may seem ridiculously 'affordable' to some, but of course, it isn't really. Thus many are stuck with Cecilio, Lade, or Walmart.

How about the Aspirant by Adolphe Sax & Cie?
https://www.adolphesax.be/aspirant-by-adolphe-sax-cie/
It's a student model by a relatively new company over here in Belgium.
He started by making good quality saxes (parts come from Taiwan, assembled and set up in Belgium). His latest project is saxophones made out of melted artillery shells.
https://www.sax4pax.com/?lang=en

I get the impression that he is quite succesfull.

 

[malteof]

So, a new brand would have a shot at succeeding (in the student market) by offering a horn for $800 new, and having the cojones to send it to numerous respected internet tech review people (say Stephen Howard or Matt Stohrer off the top of my head) and have those horns be GOOD enough to get a favorable review.

Then - an aggressive marketing scheme backed by good protection. THIS would succeed.

If the above seems highly implausible, it probably is. You are gonna contract a factory to produce a really good, precision instrument with few if any short-cuts, and somehow market it at a below-new market price. In conventional terms...how is that gonna be possible ?

Something like this one? http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk/Reviews/Saxes/Alto/academy_alto.htm

 

[malteof]

How about the Aspirant by Adolphe Sax & Cie?
https://www.adolphesax.be/aspirant-by-adolphe-sax-cie/
It's a student model by a relatively new company over here in Belgium.
He started by making good quality saxes (parts come from Taiwan, assembled and set up in Belgium). His latest project is saxophones made out of melted artillery shells.
https://www.sax4pax.com/?lang=en

I get the impression that he is quite succesfull.

These look really cool but also expensive, are you sure they're supposed to be student models?

 

[malteof]

Same applies to buying anything new.

Do you buy a new car worrying about losing 50% of your investment later on? No because there is no way buying a car, or a saxophone, is an investment unless you want to gamble on the collectibles market.

Some things/brands definitely hold their value better than others though.

 

[motteatoj]

I think it’s quite simple for instruments....
1. Very high quality of construction
2. Spectacular service post sale for any issues with #1
3. Timeless and unique design options.
4. A way to get the word out.

I think about how many things I’ve bought on amazon due to outstanding reviews.
Look at Anker, makers of phone accessories, super high quality, good designs, great word of mouth.

Look at Jean Paul saxes, Jay Thomas raves about them and sales skyrocket, stories of issues being corrected immediately elate the customers.


Spoiler alert, its how you build any brand.

 

[turf3]

Just remember:

Sell to the masses, eat with the classes.
Sell to the classes, eat with the masses.

 

[pknight]

Same applies to buying anything new.

Do you buy a new car worrying about losing 50% of your investment later on? No because there is no way buying a car, or a saxophone, is an investment unless you want to gamble on the collectibles market.

Amen!