Sax on the Web Forum banner

1 - 20 of 27 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
24 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Hello Masters, Hope you are doing well and earning mucho deniro, because you deserve it for the amazing work you do! I am current working on another student Bundy from the 1970s and trying to fix the neck which has some pull-down. I am attaching a photo of the neck, which I have already fixed about 90% of the problems, but the last 10% is giving me fits. Would you mind sharing your methods for fixing necks? I really appreciate time and knowledge! View attachment 221710
 

·
Registered
Selmer MarkVII Tenor
Joined
·
718 Posts
View attachment 221712 if you can take a photo with more resolution to appreciate in more detail, it would be very useful...
By the way, my tenor has the same pulldown in the same place...
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2016
Joined
·
17,970 Posts
Yes it's hard to see what's going on there. Perhaps shoot in daylight, no flash....

Basically, it's about tools.

What do you have ?

Do you have any neck rods and accompanying small dent balls ? Do you have neck ball drivers ? MDR system ?

Or are you just trying to fix with pulling back up and tapping out with a mallet ???
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,015 Posts
I use these for most of my sax dent work. Gooseneck Dent Rods. It takes a good eye and lots of upper body strength depending upon how thick the brass is to remove deeper neck dents. To buy the alto and tenor size along with a set of dent balls will run about $90. You also need a good vice on a solid stand to hold the dent rods. The dent in the picture looks to be what my mentor called "cut dents". That is where the brass is pushed into a sharp crevice rather than a curved dent. Curved dents are much easier to remove completely than "cut dents". With cut dents removal of around 80% is the best that typically can be done without heating and annealing the brass. In my experience, dent magnets are generally ineffective for removing dents in necks since steel balls small enough to fit inside a neck lack sufficient mass to get a strong enough magnetic pull. They are great however for removing dents in sax bows.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13 Posts
Annealing the neck would be totally unnecessary. You are definitely able to remove sharp dents without resorting to annealing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,015 Posts
Annealing the neck would be totally unnecessary. You are definitely able to remove sharp dents without resorting to annealing.
I am interested. Can you provide more details describing the tools and the process? Thanks.
 

·
Registered
Selmer MarkVII Tenor
Joined
·
718 Posts
View attachment 221726 View attachment 221728
My Selmer Mark VII has a dent under the upper pad lever... but this lever does not allow the neck to have been knocked... So, the damage is because the neck was bent ?
look at the images, please...
Another question .... Does this damage has something to do in the way the sax sounds?
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Technician.
Joined
·
3,196 Posts
Sometimes you get things like mouthpieces floating around in the case which can get under keys and cause dents. Or it could be that the octave key was taken off, for some reason, and then dropped. Stuff happens.

I doubt it will make much difference, if any. The bore shape is what shapes the sound, and the vast majority of the bore is still as it was. But when the dent is near to where the key is located, it may have moved how how the pad sits, so I'd get it fixed. It won't take long.
 

·
Distinguished Technician & SOTW Columnist. RIP, Yo
Joined
·
17,204 Posts
View attachment 221726 View attachment 221728
My Selmer Mark VII has a dent under the upper pad lever... but this lever does not allow the neck to have been knocked... So, the damage is because the neck was bent ?
look at the images, please...
Another question .... Does this damage has something to do in the way the sax sounds?
I think that dent is likely to have been inflicted by somebody putting something under there as a fulcrum while trying to bend the key for adjustment purposes.
It is not likely to make a noticable difference to how the sax sounds.
However if there is not a small gap between the neck key and the lever that operates it, then the sax will play very badly.
 

·
Distinguished Technician & SOTW Columnist. RIP, Yo
Joined
·
17,204 Posts
To pull up a "pull-down" I tighten a tenon expander firmly inside the tenon, hold the expander in a vice, then pull up the cork end with my hand.
For encouragement, at the same time as I am pulling up, I gently tap along the raised parts of the tube with a light, almost flat-faced, dent hammer with a 1mm red urethane layer glued on the hammer face.

There is always a risk that substandard soldering of the tenon could fail, but it has not happened yet.
 

·
Registered
Selmer MarkVII Tenor
Joined
·
718 Posts
Many thanks Gordon... Merry Christmas..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
24 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
Thank you for all of your input. I've been trying to hammer and push it out, but, now i've learned I need to get the gooseneck dent rods, and the neck driver...thanks for that. Everything that you are teaching is what I expected, but it is reassuring to hear it. thank you! Gordon (NZ) is the purpose of the 1mm red urethane layer on the hammer to avoid marring the lacquer? i am going to delacquer this neck and add a patina. I am attaching a photo that I hope shows more clearly the damage which it seems would be a typical damage from pull-down.
 

·
Distinguished Technician & SOTW Columnist. RIP, Yo
Joined
·
17,204 Posts
... Gordon (NZ) is the purpose of the 1mm red urethane layer on the hammer to avoid marring the lacquer?...
Steel impacting on brass bruises the brass very easily. The urethane prevents that bruising. Many techs have it over the heads of their hammers.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
24 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
Gordon,
1) by bruising the brass, does this mean the surface of the brass is depressed below its level before the steel hammer hit the brass?
2) Does the urethane layer change the force of the impact or does it distribute the force more diffusely to minimize the bruising?
3) Where do you get your urethane sheet?
4) I guess that's short for polyurethane sheet?
5) Is there any significance to the "Red" color?
6) Do you glue this to the hammer with contact cement?
 

·
Distinguished Technician & SOTW Columnist. RIP, Yo
Joined
·
17,204 Posts
1) by bruising the brass, does this mean the surface of the brass is depressed below its level before the steel hammer hit the brass?
Yes, so it is crushed in the highly localised area to a reduced wall thickness.

2) Does the urethane layer change the force of the impact or does it distribute the force more diffusely to minimize the bruising?
Both. It does not bruise at all. The pressure in the area of impact does not exceed the compressive strength of the brass.
However it does exceed the bending stress, which is what we want in order to help bend the metal back where it should be.

3) Where do you get your urethane sheet? I bought mine from Kraus. They do not sell to the general public, only technicians http://www.krausmusic.com/handtool/hammers.htm#632C
Even if it is not listed, Musicmedic may supply it. (Very helpful firm!) Or you could order it via your technician.

4) I guess that's short for polyurethane sheet? There are many "formulations" of polyurethane, probably top secret. It comes in different hardnesses.
I am only assuming from its properties (and colour that it is probably a urethane. I may be wrong.

5) Is there any significance to the "Red" color?
Probably one manufacturer's code for the durometer (hardness). This one was particularly well chosen by Kraus, an engineer by trade.

6) Do you glue this to the hammer with contact cement?
Yes. It needs to be a really good contact cement, not the sort that "creeps". It's a challenge over a curved surface.
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2016
Joined
·
17,970 Posts
Nice work, Mike...holy cow I dislike fixing twists....but indeed when you can get it to the point where it appears never to have happened, that's a nice feeling.
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2016
Joined
·
17,970 Posts
Thank you for all of your input. I've been trying to hammer and push it out, but, now i've learned I need to get the gooseneck dent rods, and the neck driver...thanks for that. Everything that you are teaching is what I expected, but it is reassuring to hear it. thank you! Gordon (NZ) is the purpose of the 1mm red urethane layer on the hammer to avoid marring the lacquer? i am going to delacquer this neck and add a patina. I am attaching a photo that I hope shows more clearly the damage which it seems would be a typical damage from pull-down.
You don't necessarily HAVE to have a neck driver....for years I did OK just with neck rods and balls, burnishers, mallets, and magnetic balls as a smoother. Worked well on 75% of cases. But the drivers are pretty awesome, they are just very efficient.
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Technician
Joined
·
998 Posts
How did you get magnetic ball to do anything in such a small area. I find them useless when they get that small. I just use a rod and balls and mandrels. Also lots if tapping. All of it back and forth. Never have had a neck driver.
 
1 - 20 of 27 Posts
Top