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how to level the table of the mouthpiece?

6K views 45 replies 20 participants last post by  DarrellMass 
#1 ·
Hello guys,
one of my dukoff mouthpiece 's table is unbalanced, i believe there is a little bump in the middle . I think the reeds in the picture below explains better than me.
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So , my question is, how do i level the table of this kind of bump?
Which number of sand-paper should i use?

thank you guys , any comment is appreciated.
 
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#4 ·
thank you guys, so what is the solution for that?
 
#9 ·
Eventually all reeds will take a set like the picture, from being repeatedly bent over the curve of the mouthpiece facing. Putting them in a reed guard may slow this process but it'll happen anyway.

It's obvious that mouthpieces with bigger openings and those with shorter facings will make this happen faster and more severely.

Play them till they feel too soft; then clip them; if that doesn't help throw them away.
 
#10 ·
thank you turf3, so you guys agree with don't touch the table right?
 
#11 ·
If you have doubts about the mouthpiece the easiest, and cheapest, way to fix is it send it to someone who knows what they're doing for an evaluation. Maybe the table is flat, maybe it isnt, maybe the facing is inconsistent, maybe the facing is too long or short, maybe its perfectly fine and the quality of cane for that batch of reeds is bad, who knows.
 
#13 ·
That reed in the foreground (in front) doesn't appear to have the proportions of a normal reed. The vamp is too short compared to the heal. It looks like it has been clipped a few times to extend it's life. If you're doing this you're effectively moving the break point back along the length of the reed and eventually you will get a big arc or camber in a reed like this. Are you clipping or shortening these reeds??
 
#14 ·
What happens if you put the mouthpiece against a piece of glass?

(Please don’t tell me you don’t have a piece of glass.)
 
#17 ·
Is this causing any issues with playing? Many mouthpieces don’t have perfectly flat tables or have otherwise imperfect facings but can still play well. Sure you can get it worked on, but if you like the way it plays then you can just try to work with it as it is. One technique I have used on mouthpieces with iffy tables is to soak the reed and allow it to dry on the mouthpieces so it adapts to the table’s form a bit better.
 
#18 ·
Some mouthpieces are meant to have a level table, and some are designed to have a slightly concave table to seal when the center of the reed swells from moisture absorption. Both kinds of mouthpieces work, so you may not want to have a level table on certain mouthpieces. I ruined an old Vandoren mouthpiece for tenor long ago by trying to make the table flat when it was not designed to be that way. Just play a mouthpiece that works for you, and leave it alone. Reeds you can easily adjust, adjusting a mouthpiece is quite a different matter.
 
#19 ·
A vandoren or other mpc will always perform just fine or better if the table is flat. However after flattening the table Evenly...not as easy as it sounds. The curve has to be corrected.

That said, the opis using reeds for evidence...not conclusive at all. If we were to use them as evidence we would conclude that the table is convex, not concave. A convex table is somewhat rare compared to concave and a table as convex as his reeds probably would have had him tossing the mouthpiece in the trash long ago.

internet tricks and anecdotal information jut does not cut it. A flat surface, tools and the knowledge of how to use them does. Of course the op is the only one who know if the piece plays well. If it does dont sweat it. If it does not do not ruin the piece.
 
#21 ·
A vandoren or other mpc will always perform just fine or better if the table is flat. However after flattening the table Evenly...not as easy as it sounds. The curve has to be corrected.

That said, the opis using reeds for evidence...not conclusive at all. If we were to use them as evidence we would conclude that the table is convex, not concave. A convex table is somewhat rare compared to concave and a table as convex as his reeds probably would have had him tossing the mouthpiece in the trash long ago.

internet tricks and anecdotal information jut does not cut it. A flat surface, tools and the knowledge of how to use them does. Of course the op is the only one who know if the piece plays well. If it does dont sweat it. If it does not do not ruin the piece.
I have to disagree about Vandoren mouthpices always having a flat table. I had a red Vandoren which is like the jumbo jave of today back in 1976. I drove down to Kenosha Wiscsonsin to the LeBlanc factory, and had their mouthpiece expert, Emil Aiello take a look at it. The table was not flat, he did some work on it, and the mouthpiece was missing all of the normal overtones and edge in the sound. It was DOA. The only good part of that experience was I looked for a new mouth piece, and ended up with a Couf which I played for decades. Some friends of mine have visited the Babbit mouthpiece factory, and it was a lot of old women in there making mouthpices. They were simply factory works making a product, and they could not make a consistent mouthpiece to save their life.
 
#22 · (Edited)
Well, ive refaced a lot of vandoren pieces and it far from killed them. I didnt say their pieces are always flat. Im saying that over and over Ive out flat tables on vandoren pieces and they performed better. The theory behind. Slightly concave table is to permit reed expansion. Its not a sonic consideration..outside the issue of sealing. There are those who buy into this school of thought and those who prefer a flat table.

either way it goes to support that when you work on a piece things will change...maybe some of the things you like along with those you dont like. That needs to be considered as much as the skill level of the person doing the job.
 
#23 ·
If a flat reed storage system can not keep your reed flat, how can a tiny bump on your table make them so bowed?

You probably close off a lot of the tip opening with your embouchure when you play. This bows the reed over time. All players do this to some extent but some players do it a lot with open tips and not taking in a lot of mouthpiece.

You do not need to change this if it works for you. Just be aware of what is going on.
 
#24 ·
That’s why I’ve never understood playing a large tip. You just bend the reed with your embouchure into a smaller tip opening anyway. That shows me you’re wasting some energy somewhere.
My idea is to play a smaller tip and play as loose as possible. That way your energy can be used to push a better airstream and fill the sax, not just the mouthpiece. You can definitely articulate better.
I play a 6 Link and my reeds never look like that. Maybe a slight bend but not much.
 
#26 ·
That's why I've never understood playing a large tip. You just bend the reed with your embouchure into a smaller tip opening anyway. That shows me you're wasting some energy somewhere.
My idea is to play a smaller tip and play as loose as possible. That way your energy can be used to push a better airstream and fill the sax, not just the mouthpiece. You can definitely articulate better.
I play a 6 Link and my reeds never look like that. Maybe a slight bend but not much.
Well, you don't bend it (much) if you have the right embouchure. I play huge tip openings and don't have this issue. If you're bending more than a tiny amount, you're doing it wrong. I see this in students, but it can persist for years if not corrected. I'd say if you see a big bend like this, take it as a sign to fix your embouchure or step down to a smaller tip. Another clue you're playing a large tip wrong is you'll tend to play sharp and have to pull your mouthpiece way out.

I get a much bigger sound, more flexibility and much fuller subtone on a big tip, which is why I prefer one and have been playing one since the 70s. I have no problems with articulation.
 
#29 ·
Part of the problem with reeds is finding a reed holder that is actually flat. I have tried everything over the years, and the one that works the best is a La Voz aluminum reed holder that I bought in high school back in 1965. I only have one, so I went to ebay a few days ago, and found one there in good shape and bought it. Not many around anymore, but compared to the ones with the gooves in them, or any plastic one, this old one is the best. It just works.
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#33 ·
I have tried everything over the years, and the one that works the best is a La Voz aluminum reed holder that I bought in high school back in 1965. I only have one, so I went to ebay a few days ago, and found one there in good shape and bought it. Not many around anymore, but compared to the ones with the gooves in them, or any plastic one, this old one is the best. It just works.
View attachment 103057
Hey, I have one of those that I probably bought back in the early '70s. It works fine but my favorite is the D'Adarrio holder, which is basically the same thing except you can open it up and clean it.
 
#30 ·
Styles, i dont think we are disagreeing that much. Maybe Im just not being clear or you aren’t hearing me. im saying they are flat when I am done working on them and being flat does not kill a design.....but it doesnt matter. We can agree or disagree when it comes to splitting hairs.
 
#32 ·
Styles, i dont think we are disagreeing that much. Maybe Im just not being clear or you aren't hearing me. im saying they are flat when I am done working on them and being flat does not kill a design.....but it doesnt matter. We can agree or disagree when it comes to splitting hairs.
Has anyone ever tried to split a hair?
 
#31 ·
I doubt those bent reeds are a mpc issue. As several posters above have pointed out, there is a tendency for the reed to bend slightly toward the mpc tip, especially with more open tips. And maybe more so if your embouchure is tight or you are biting. Even if you play with a loose embouchure, over time a reed could bend slightly (although probably not to the extent in those photos). Or the reed could simply be worn out.
 
#37 ·
It is important to level with your mouthpiece. I usually say, listen mouthpiece, I'm going to level with you. There is no way to sugar coat this, but I have to tell you that you are not perfect. Granted we all have our foibles and issues, but mouthpiece, you need to straighten yourself out, and get that table level. No more excuses mouthpiece. If you don't straighten yourself out by tomorrow, you will end up as a door stop. That usually works. Mouthpieces really hate ending up life as a doorstop.
 
#40 ·
I've mentioned this on here before (probably more than once), but one night some years back when I saw Gene Ammons at the Both And Club in SF, I noticed him placing a business card between the mpc and the reed and pushing out on the reed. At the time I didn't know why, but much late came to realize he was bending the reed back out from the mpc tip.

I've done this when a reed seems to be getting soft and is probably bent in toward the tip. Bending the reed back out is only a temporary fix, but it will play and respond better; long enough to get through a set on the bandstand. A business card or, even better, credit card works well.
 
#42 ·
I've mentioned this on here before (probably more than once), but one night some years back when I saw Gene Ammons at the Both And Club in SF, I noticed him placing a business card between the mpc and the reed and pushing out on the reed. At the time I didn't know why, but much late came to realize he was bending the reed back out from the mpc tip.

I've done this when a reed seems to be getting soft and is probably bent in toward the tip. Bending the reed back out is only a temporary fix, but it will play and respond better; long enough to get through a set on the bandstand. A business card or, even better, credit card works well.
Santy Runyon used to sell something similar to a slice of a business card, but it was thicker and softer. It did two things, it absorbed water on the reed, but it also as a side effect straighten things out a bit pushing the reed out as you say. I only used it on clarinet, and carried them in my case, but they worked great. You have to be very gentle, and not use it too often, but they do make a difference.
 
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