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Discussion Starter #1
Hello,
I am in the process to re-assemble a selmer tenor SIII for the first time.
While I am not scared about he re-assembly of keys etc ... I just wonder how should I glue together the sax body tube and the bow?
There is a metal metal ring with 2 screws that is used to join the 2 parts together but do I need also to use some soft glue to avoid leaks?
Thanks in advance for your help!!!
 

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My technique is to use 15 minute 2 part epoxy. You mix the two parts together and then apply a small amount to each surface. I find a small stiff artists paintbrush works well for this step. You then assemble the body and bow in the proper alignment and connect the bell to body brace. If you get excess epoxy around the seam, it is easily wiped off using a soft cloth and alcohol or a Q-tip. The last step is to tighten the two screws in the metal ring. Some rings contain a guard foot, so make sure that is in the correct position first. Tighten the screws in increments going back and forth between the two till they are both snug. Double check the alignment by installing the low Eb and C keys, and then don't touch the sax for 24 hours to let the epoxy fully cure. I like to use epoxy at this joint because it can be undone in the future when needed by applying just moderate heat.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Thanks a lot, very clear.
I found a 2 hours 2 part epoxy glue. I will try this tomorrow.
 

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Just curious, what happened to the sax that made you remove the bow? I've had a MK VI that had everything done to it that you can do to a sax- buffing/lacquering, dent removal, swedging, tone hole raising and leveling, pad jobs, overhauls and even cryogenic treatment, but nobody ever took the body apart.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I sent it for "aero gommage" which is a special non-abrasive treatment to remove the lacquer and bring a super cool patina.
I will send picture here once re-assembled.
Just curious, what happened to the sax that made you remove the bow? I've had a MK VI that had everything done to it that you can do to a sax- buffing/lacquering, dent removal, swedging, tone hole raising and leveling, pad jobs, overhauls and even cryogenic treatment, but nobody ever took the body apart.
 

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Thanks a lot, very clear.
I found a 2 hours 2 part epoxy glue. I will try this tomorrow.
That's good. Especially since it's your first time, the lower curing time is better. The last thing you want is start messing with partially dry epoxy before you have it in the right position. Usually the slower curing epoxies are also stronger, which is another advantage, although some faster epoxies are more than strong enough. I've done this many times but still prefer a slow and very strong epoxy for this.

Just curious, what happened to the sax that made you remove the bow? I've had a MK VI that had everything done to it that you can do to a sax- buffing/lacquering, dent removal, swedging, tone hole raising and leveling, pad jobs, overhauls and even cryogenic treatment, but nobody ever took the body apart.
It's not always necessary to disassemble it, but if that much is done, it's not a huge deal to do it. Both to make sure it doesn't leak and sometimes to make other jobs much easier.
 

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I sent it for "aero gommage" which is a special non-abrasive treatment to remove the lacquer and bring a super cool patina.
I will send picture here once re-assembled.
I prefer to play horns into that de-lacquered patina.
I wonder if the fact that my old Balanced Action didn’t have the removable bell and came soldered together is why it speaks so well.
 

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Silicon? Acrylic?

In the factory videos, they use a black glue pumped out from a cartridge, but I can't say what kind of glue is.
For sure the don't use any kind of epoxy, nor they braze the two parts with a tin alloy.

The last Series III Jubilee I tried was ridiculously easy on the low register... even without epoxy and other stuff...
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Silicon? Acrylic?

In the factory videos, they use a black glue pumped out from a cartridge, but I can't say what kind of glue is.
For sure the don't use any kind of epoxy, nor they braze the two parts with a tin alloy.

The last Series III Jubilee I tried was ridiculously easy on the low register... even without epoxy and other stuff...
It is true that I can see some residus of the former joint and it has an orange color and is very soft like silicon or rubber
 

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Discussion Starter #11
That's good. Especially since it's your first time, the lower curing time is better. The last thing you want is start messing with partially dry epoxy before you have it in the right position. Usually the slower curing epoxies are also stronger, which is another advantage, although some faster epoxies are more than strong enough. I've done this many times but still prefer a slow and very strong epoxy for this.


It's not always necessary to disassemble it, but if that much is done, it's not a huge deal to do it. Both to make sure it doesn't leak and sometimes to make other jobs much easier.
Yes but ... I tried to re-assemble the body and bow with the slow epoxy glue. Everything went well : i put the glue, I attached the body to the bell with the 3 screw link and I also fixed the guard foot but afterwards it was simply impossible to tighten the 2 screw of the metal ring ... like of they are too short ... I tried for about 1 hour to fit these 2 small screws without success. I then di-assemble everything and cleaned everything with alcohol ... arghhhh
I am not sure I am ready to try again ... i did not expect this type of problem ...
 

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I'm sorry to hear of your difficulty. It is always a good idea to do a trial assembly first before the assembly where the epoxy is added. It is important to make sure the tightening ring is facing the right direction. They are generally not designed to be turned either way. There is also a specific location where the ring sits atop the joint. If it is even slightly off it won't close properly. There are times when I have had to hold the ring closed using small nose locking pliers in order to get one of the screws started. It sometimes helps to turn the ring to a position where the tightening screws are more accessible in order to get the screws started, and then turn the ring back to the proper position to finish tightening the screws.

Don't be discouraged. I repair saxophones professionally and I can't tell you the number of times something goes sideways on me and has to be started over from the beginning. It's part of the learning process. My mentor used to say if you do everything perfect the first time you try, you will never learn anything.
 

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I sent it for "aero gommage" which is a special non-abrasive treatment to remove the lacquer and bring a super cool patina.
I will send picture here once re-assembled.
Aerogommage is sodablasting. It is not non-abrasive. It is a an abrasive gentler than some, eg sand-blasting, but still an abrasive. Otherwise it would probably do nothing.
"Sodablasting is a mild form of abrasive blasting in which sodium bicarbonate particles are blasted against a surface using compressed air. "
Interesting information... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodablasting.

I wonder why it is not used in musical instrument cleaning.
Interesting about the patina. Perhaps it somehow induces copper to be quickly oxidised to copper carbonate.
 

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Yes but ... I tried to re-assemble the body and bow with the slow epoxy glue. Everything went well : i put the glue, I attached the body to the bell with the 3 screw link and I also fixed the guard foot but afterwards it was simply impossible to tighten the 2 screw of the metal ring ... like of they are too short ... I tried for about 1 hour to fit these 2 small screws without success. I then di-assemble everything and cleaned everything with alcohol ... arghhhh
I am not sure I am ready to try again ... i did not expect this type of problem ...
You can remove epoxy by heating to about 150C.

First try to reassemble it without any glue. The glue shouldn't cause any problem.

I assume you tried to reassemble while the glue wasn't dry yet i.e. you didn't have chunks of dried glue on the outside, enlarging the diameter, causing the ring not to close.
Anyway wipe any excess glue before tightening the ring screws.

Make sure the ring is in the correct direction (up/down). Some/most of them need to be in a specific orientation.

I don't remember the Serie II specifically, but I think one of the Eb key guard feet is on the ring? Have the guard mounted with the ring in place, but before tightening the ring.

If the ring was fine before you disassembled it and then you found a problem, something is probably wrong with the reassembly. Another possibility, but a much less likely one, is that something was off before but it was forced to close.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Thanks for all your comments and advices!
I tried again today to assemble body and bow without any glue and by making sure it is in the right orientation and well sealed.
Simply impossible to lock the 2 screws of the metal ring .... come on Selmer ... why making these screws so short that it is impossible to engage them, I also tried with a plier and no way ...
I will try to find longer screws ... not sure these have standard thread ...
 

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I suggest caution against using epoxy fo this application - if it cracks, you will have a leak. Either go with solder for a stronger joint (as was traditional, and still preferred by many techs), or use a flexible sealant that won’t crack.
 

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I am pretty sure that there is still something incorrect in the assembly or the alignment, for those screws not to go in. I'm not sure about this model, but some saxes have an indescing pip and groove somewhere around the circumference of the tube that need to be engaged.

I cannot imagine epoxy cracking if the surfaces are prepared well and the glue fills the gap right round, i.e. the job is done properly. The forces are sheer, over a large surface. Glue is very good at this.
One problem with silicone is it tends to be a lot messier to use.
If you used silicon it is probably more difficult to ever separate again, and very difficult to clean it off if necessary for any reason.
With epoxy, if you catch it when it is half cured, it is very easy to push off excess beads without mess.
 

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It seems to me the screws were long enough to engage before the ring was undone in the first place. If you can find out the thread size, you could possibly find a longer metric machine screw that size to get one started and close one side of the ring. Then you could install the correct one on the other side, tighten it, and then replace the long one with the original. Something I discovered by accident on a Mark VI alto I overhauled is that the pivot screws have the same diameter head and thread size as the ring tightening screws. One of the ring screws got lost and I was able to file the point off a pivot screw and it worked perfectly. If I remember correctly it was a bit longer than the original as well. The Mark VI pivot thread is M3.0 x .6. I don't know if the more recent Selmers have the same thread size or not. They are available from Votaw Tool. Good luck.
 

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It seems to me the screws were long enough to engage before the ring was undone in the first place. If you can find out the thread size, you could possibly find a longer metric machine screw that size to get one started and close one side of the ring. Then you could install the correct one on the other side, tighten it, and then replace the long one with the original. Something I discovered by accident on a Mark VI alto I overhauled is that the pivot screws have the same diameter head and thread size as the ring tightening screws. One of the ring screws got lost and I was able to file the point off a pivot screw and it worked perfectly. If I remember correctly it was a bit longer than the original as well. The Mark VI pivot thread is M3.0 x .6. I don't know if the more recent Selmers have the same thread size or not. They are available from Votaw Tool. Good luck.
Are you sure about M3 x 0.6? The standard coarse thread is M3 x 0.5.
 

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Considering the fact that the horn is already taken apart and you're planning on putting it back together yourself, why not find a tech that's willing to let you watch them do the job of attaching the body to bow?
 
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