[gohabsgo]

Hi all,

I have no clue on how to start with transcribing. I've only been playing for a few months but am hoping to learn how to transcribe so that I can figure out some songs from listening to recordings.

Problem is, though, how can you pick the notes out when they seem to be flying past so fast? And how do you figure out the time sig, etc? Also, how can you tell if it is a B-flat or A#?

Anyone have some good pointers?

Cheers,
Larry
PS. A couple of tunes I want to transcribe are Blue Lester and Bye Bye Blackbird.

 

[Randy Hunter]

Hi Larry,

Begin by transcribing melodies. Learn to sing the lines you are going to transcribe.

Most jazz tunes are in 4/4, but some are in 3/4, 6/8, and occasionally (rarely) an odd time signature like 5/8. By tapping your foot to the beat, you should be able to determine fairly quickly that Bye Bye Blackbird is in 4/4.

Next, determine the length of the tune (number of measures). You can also listen for the form, which means how many sections there are in the tune. One common form is AABA- that means there is and A section (usually 8 bars) that is played twice, a B section that often shifts in tonality, then a repeat of the A section. Bye Bye Blackbird is a little different in that it has a form of A,B,C,D- each section is 8-bars. Create your transcription template by blocking off 32-bars on a sheet of manuscript. I'd suggest blocking 4-bars per line, with a double bar at the end of each 8-bar section.

Since you have learned to sing the melody, begin matching notes up with your instrument. Determine the key signature by trying to locate the scale and arpeggio that most of the notes are from. Remember, many tunes include accidentals where the tune has notes outside of the home scale that either embellish the key or are part of a tonal shift. Bye Bye Blackbird is often played in the key of F concert. Add your key signature to your template.

Next, begin placing the notes and rhythms in your template. If you get stuck, move to a different section. You can always go back and work on the tricky parts. Having the sections blocked off will also allow you to check yourself by counting to any given point in the song as you listen.

Randy
www.randyhunterjazz.com
Online Jazz Lessons and Books
New Lesson: Shaping the Blues Scale
Lessons page: www.beginningsax.com/Jazz Improv Lessons.htm
Podcast Samples: http://www.youtube.com/user/saxtrax
Rhythm Changes Demo:

 

[guido]

There is a software program called Transcribe (http://www.seventhstring.com/) that allows you to slow down and control playback by measure, loop sections etc. It is a fantastic tool to make the process of transcription a whole lot easier.

But unlike Randy (and there is a strong tradition in academic circles to do just as he suggests), I suggest only using your ears and your horn -- don't write it down! Just work slowly adding one measure at a time repeating what you hear until you have it memorized and can play it back with the recording at full speed. Then it is yours. You can start to play it in all 12 keys, pick out an integrate phrases you like into your playing vocabulary, or whatever you want from it. This is the way it was done by the masters you are listening to (there is question as to how well Lester could read and write music, but no question how well he could play -- because he had developed his ears).

Jazz is an aural art form in real time. The more you can hear and respond in real time the better. You don't have time to stop and write it down on the bandstand, I think it is a bad habit to form to need to write everything down as part of your transcription studies.

Good Luck!

guido

 

[Pete Thomas]

But unlike Randy (and there is a strong tradition in academic circles to do just as he suggests), I suggest only using your ears and your horn -- don't write it down!

I think there is a good argument in favour of doing both, I agree it is a bad habit to have to write everything down, but it's useful to be able to it down as well as memorise it.

Memorise a solo (or a phrase or a chunk of a solo) first, then write it down.

And another vote hear fro the Transcribe software, it's great.

 

[JL]

I've only been playing for a few months...

It's never too early to begin learning to transcribe. However, if you've only been playing a few months you'll have to accept the fact that it will not be easy. That doesn't mean don't do it, just that you have some real hurdles that will take time and more knowledge to overcome. What I'd suggest at this point is to just play along and try matching some notes and phrases that you hear. You'll make lots of mistakes right now because you simply haven't been playing long enough yet.

Some suggestions: For the time being, spend most of your practice time learning the fundamentals of the instrument (hopefully you have a teacher). Learn all 12 major scales backwards and forwards. Learn to identify the tonic (key center) in a tune. More often than not, a tune will end on the tonic. Unless you have perfect pitch (most of us don't) you'll have to search for it by playing along with a tune, and that won't work until you have all those major scales under your belt and understand something about how a key center functions and the chord changes. Don't worry, it takes time.

I only mention all this to help you avoid frustration, when you don't get it immediately. Right now you will have your hands full getting all the fingerings down, working on tone quality (very important), articulation, etc, on the horn. I started playing along to Charlie Parker tunes when I was a beginner (and by that I mean I'd been playing the sax for about 3 years, simply reading music) and of course it was nearly impossible to get a fraction of what he was playing. But I still got a lot out of it (sometimes ignorance is bliss!) just trying to imitate what I heard. I wasn't even close to transcribing what I was hearing though. Later, when wiser and smarter, I picked some very simple blues tunes to play along and transcribe, and now 30+ years later, I can just about do that! Most of the time.

 

[Randy Hunter]

But unlike Randy (and there is a strong tradition in academic circles to do just as he suggests), I suggest only using your ears and your horn -- don't write it down! Just work slowly adding one measure at a time repeating what you hear until you have it memorized and can play it back with the recording at full speed. Then it is yours. You can start to play it in all 12 keys, pick out an integrate phrases you like into your playing vocabulary, or whatever you want from it. This is the way it was done by the masters you are listening to (there is question as to how well Lester could read and write music, but no question how well he could play -- because he had developed his ears).

Jazz is an aural art form in real time. The more you can hear and respond in real time the better. You don't have time to stop and write it down on the bandstand, I think it is a bad habit to form to need to write everything down as part of your transcription studies.

Sure, I agree that it is important to learn to listen and respond. It's also bad to have to write everything out. But, one of the important aspects of writing out transcriptions is that you learn to figure out rhythms and communicate them on paper. As a musician it's important to develop literacy skills as well as aural skills. Remember, transcribing is an exercise. You would likely benefit from both writing transcriptions out and learning them completely by ear without writing anything out. Either way, you won't go wrong by developing your transcribing skills.

Randy
www.randyhunterjazz.com
Online Jazz Lessons and Books
New Lesson: Shaping the Blues Scale
Lessons page: www.beginningsax.com/Jazz Improv Lessons.htm
Podcast Samples: http://www.youtube.com/user/saxtrax
Rhythm Changes Demo:

 

[gohabsgo]

But, one of the important aspects of writing out transcriptions is that you learn to figure out rhythms and communicate them on paper.

That, to me, is very difficult. Counting is one thing but listening to a piece and figuring out which notes (quarter, whole, dotted, etc) to use is quite a challenge.
Are ther any tips on how to do this easily?

I think I have been able to nail all of the note names for the first section of Blue Lester but not sure of the note durations. Can anyone give me a clue here? I'm pretty sure it is 4/4 time at least [rolleyes]

Thanks to everyone's replies above. I was able to find Transcribe! and that was a great help. Now if I can figure out the timing (on paper), I'll be very happy.

Has anyone used Forte for notation? I find it frustrating to create simple stuff, it always seems to make it complicated. Anyone have any tips on getting it to work in 'simple' mode? Ie it always wants to fit the entered notes to the 4 beats and to do that, it adds funky rests and dotted dots, etc. Afterwards, it is almost unreadable.

Cheers,

Larry

 

[Pete Thomas]

That, to me, is very difficult. Counting is one thing but listening to a piece and figuring out which notes (quarter, whole, dotted, etc) to use is quite a challenge.
Are ther any tips on how to do this easily?

Yes! You've already got the answer (see above: Transcribe software)

 

[gohabsgo]

Pete, not to be rude, but did you read my post? Just to clarify in case you misinterpreted my post, I am using Transcribe to figure out which notes - ie A, B, C etc. My difficulty lies in
how to determine how long each note should be played. Just looking for some how-to guide on this. I have a bit of a mental block on this counting, let alone counting and fitting notes
into quarter notes, dotted quarters, triplets, etc. Just looking for some tips on how experienced transcribers can lift this information though listening to a particular piece.

Regards,
Larry

 

[JL]

I have a bit of a mental block on this counting, let alone counting and fitting notes
into quarter notes, dotted quarters, triplets, etc. Just looking for some tips on how experienced transcribers can lift this information though listening to a particular piece.

Regards,
Larry

Larry, as I said earlier, I think you have to back up just a bit. You've only been playing a few months! What I'd strongly suggest is to work with a metronome, playing scales or even a single note, but fit it to the beat. So start off playing whole notes (hold each note for 4 beats), then half notes (2 beats), then quarter notes (1 note to a beat), then eighth notes (2 notes to a beat).

Start at a slow tempo and work up gradually. Once you have that all timed (especially quarter notes and eighth notes), you can try triplets (3 notes to the beat) and sixteenths (4 notes to the beat: "one ee and ah two ee and ah" etc.).

Next work on playing eighth notes starting on the upbeat. Then try skipping some beats, etc. Then progress to playing simple tunes, still using the metronome. Then go from there. There's a lot more you can do rhythmically, but this will get you started. Eventually you'll recognize certain rhythmic figures when you hear them. Jazz uses a lot of syncopation (look it up) and that can be tricky until you get used to it. But it's what will help make the music come alive.

This will take a lot of time. Take your time. Timing is everything.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Pete, not to be rude, but did you read my post?

Yes, which is exactly why I mentioned Transcribe. The easiest way (IMO) to figure out note lengths is to use the bar markers in Transcribe. You then see the waveform aligned to the beats and bars so is very easy to determine rhythms, as compared to a waveform with no bar grid as a reference.

 

[gohabsgo]

Larry, as I said earlier, I think you have to back up just a bit. You've only been playing a few months! What I'd strongly suggest is to work with a metronome, playing scales or even a single note, but fit it to the beat. So start off playing whole notes (hold each note for 4 beats), then half notes (2 beats), then quarter notes (1 note to a beat), then eighth notes (2 notes to a beat).

Start at a slow tempo and work up gradually. Once you have that all timed (especially quarter notes and eighth notes), you can try triplets (3 notes to the beat) and sixteenths (4 notes to the beat: "one ee and ah two ee and ah" etc.).

Next work on playing eighth notes starting on the upbeat. Then try skipping some beats, etc. Then progress to playing simple tunes, still using the metronome. Then go from there. There's a lot more you can do rhythmically, but this will get you started. Eventually you'll recognize certain rhythmic figures when you hear them. Jazz uses a lot of syncopation (look it up) and that can be tricky until you get used to it. But it's what will help make the music come alive.

This will take a lot of time. Take your time. Timing is everything.

Thanks JL. I'm not exactly a newbie at music. I have 37+ years of guitar under my belt but my music reading has been next to zilch. I can count but need to work things out slowly when reading sheet music. But there has to be some technique that you use when listening and writing it down on a sheet of paper. With guitar, I have been mostly doing it by ear and feel.

Regards,
Larry

 

[JL]

Thanks JL. I'm not exactly a newbie at music. I have 37+ years of guitar under my belt but my music reading has been next to zilch. I can count but need to work things out slowly when reading sheet music. But there has to be some technique that you use when listening and writing it down on a sheet of paper. With guitar, I have been mostly doing it by ear and feel.

Regards,
Larry

Hmmm, well that's a bit of a different issue. So you have no trouble 'transcribing' and playing it by ear in terms of the rhythm? Rather it's just a matter of writing it down? I'm one of those who rarely write anything down on sheet music unless I have a good reason to do so. And yeah, getting the rhythm right on paper is a bit of a challenge. I don't have any problem with note duration, though. Mostly it's getting all the syncopation correct. Writing it down can be a good exercise, but not sure it's totally necessary if you aren't writing out parts for other musicians.

What I do when transcribing by ear, is count by tapping my foot or hand and in my mind I 'slot' each phrase, making sure it all comes out right. It's harder to describe than to do it. But you need to know if a phrase is starting on the 'and of 3' or whatever, and of course get the correct rhythm for the notes. I find it much easier to hear and learn the proper rhythm by ear than to write it down, so maybe I'm not the best one to tell you how to do the writing part. In most cases the rhythm that is written down is only an approximation, but it still has to be the 'right' approximation, if that makes sense.

One last question: If you've been playing guitar for 37+ years, I assume you were transcribing tunes with the guitar. Why not do it the same way with the sax (by ear)?

p.s. Being kind of 'old school,' I've never used the slow down software or Transcribe (I just put the recording on and go from there). Maybe it's time I checked that stuff out!!!

 

[gohabsgo]

Hmmm, well that's a bit of a different issue. So you have no trouble 'transcribing' and playing it by ear in terms of the rhythm? Rather it's just a matter of writing it down? I'm one of those who rarely write anything down on sheet music unless I have a good reason to do so. And yeah, getting the rhythm right on paper is a bit of a challenge. I don't have any problem with note duration, though. Mostly it's getting all the syncopation correct. Writing it down can be a good exercise, but not sure it's totally necessary if you aren't writing out parts for other musicians.

What I do when transcribing by ear, is count by tapping my foot or hand and in my mind I 'slot' each phrase, making sure it all comes out right. It's harder to describe than to do it. But you need to know if a phrase is starting on the 'and of 3' or whatever, and of course get the correct rhythm for the notes. I find it much easier to hear and learn the proper rhythm by ear than to write it down, so maybe I'm not the best one to tell you how to do the writing part. In most cases the rhythm that is written down is only an approximation, but it still has to be the 'right' approximation, if that makes sense.

One last question: If you've been playing guitar for 37+ years, I assume you were transcribing tunes with the guitar. Why not do it the same way with the sax (by ear)?

p.s. Being kind of 'old school,' I've never used the slow down software or Transcribe (I just put the recording on and go from there). Maybe it's time I checked that stuff out!!!

With the guitar, I have almost always learned a song by ear to fingers except maybe in year one where I took some lessons and learned very basic reading. Later, I even got a bit lazy and did what most guitar players do and used tablature which doesn't really account for timing in a real sense like dots do.

I kind of have this mental block about counting in my head or tapping my toe and remembering where the note is to start/finish. It's kind of crazy but when I listen to the tune, I can pick the notes and rhythm fairly reliably with the guitar and oddly enough remember it after playing it a few times. I don't have the chops on the sax yet to get far enough along in a song without needing a prompt which is provided by the sheet music. So, I hope to get a reasonable transcription to work from to learn this song, Blue Lester. For other songs out there, I have been using Real books or Fake books to get by.

Cheers,

Larry

 

[gohabsgo]

Yes, which is exactly why I mentioned Transcribe. The easiest way (IMO) to figure out note lengths is to use the bar markers in Transcribe. You then see the waveform aligned to the beats and bars so is very easy to determine rhythms, as compared to a waveform with no bar grid as a reference.

Hi Pete,

Yes, I know about Transcribe! I had already mentioned in my last reply to the forum (just before you posted about transcribe) that I had found a copy of Transcribe! I guess you missed that post? I think it works great, though my brain doesn't convert the rhythms to paper (or software) sheet music very well. I just need to find a transcribing for dummies website.

Anyone know of a better program than Forte for notation? Maybe I just don't know how to use it properly. Is there a way to play a section of the piece rather than always playing from the start? And I don't mean step playback, rather just start at bar xx and continue.

Cheers,

Larry

 

[Pete Thomas]

Hi Pete,

Yes, I know about Transcribe! I had already mentioned in my last reply to the forum (just before you posted about transcribe) that I had found a copy of Transcribe! I guess you missed that post?

No, I saw that post and I'm aware you have transcribe. I just presumed you hadn't yet got to grips with how Transcribe can help with notating the rhythms, so I mentioned about the markers in order to answer your exact question.

 

[Bubba06]

I wonder, what other think about using the chord changes when your transcribe as well? Is it a bad habit to have the changes above the bars?

-Bubba-

 

[Kelly Bucheger]

Is it a bad habit to have the changes above the bars?

Hell No! In my opinion. Having the harmonic context is extremely useful to help you tease out what the heck is going on, dagnabbit!

And, by the way, gohabsgo: Pete's tip about the bar markers [and beat markers] in Transcribe is what makes the program so ding-dang great! Check it out if you haven't!

 

[Bubba06]

Hell No! In my opinion. Having the harmonic context is extremely useful to help you tease out what the heck is going on, dagnabbit!

And, by the way, gohabsgo: Pete's tip about the bar markers [and beat markers] in Transcribe is what makes the program so ding-dang great! Check it out if you haven't!

Thanks,
I've always felt I was cheating by using my brain.

-Bubba-

 

[Randy Hunter]

That, to me, is very difficult. Counting is one thing but listening to a piece and figuring out which notes (quarter, whole, dotted, etc) to use is quite a challenge.
Are ther any tips on how to do this easily?

I think I have been able to nail all of the note names for the first section of Blue Lester but not sure of the note durations. Can anyone give me a clue here? I'm pretty sure it is 4/4 time at least [rolleyes]

One thing that will help is determining the middle of each measure. When you're writing in 4/4 time, it's important to be able to see the middle of the measure. That's why you often see 8th notes written in groups of 4. When writing your music down, whether it's a transcription or an original composition, if you can determine what's happening on beat 3 (the middle of each measure), that will help you use your powers of deduction to determine difficult rhythms.

Randy
www.randyhunterjazz.com
Online Jazz Lessons and Books
New Lesson: Shaping the Blues Scale
Lessons page: www.beginningsax.com/Jazz Improv Lessons.htm
Podcast Samples: http://www.youtube.com/user/saxtrax
Rhythm Changes Demo: