[dirty]

I've been spending most of my playing time lately on a 305XXX Zephyr that I picked up earlier this year. Initially I couldn't quite get along with it as well as my Conn or Selmer, but it's really grown on me. I love the warm core with tons of color and buzz in the tone and it goes great with my RPC 115B that didn't suit the tone of the Conn very well.

When I got the horn, it was a decent deal on a clean-looking instrument and I wanted to try it as sort of a "poor man's Super 20." When it showed up, it needed a bunch of work and had been overhauled quite badly by the shop I bought it from, so I just had Mike Manning do enough to get it playing so I could see how I liked it. Now that I know I like it, I need to decide what to do next, since even a repad will take my expenses on this horn well past what it's worth. If I am keeping the horn and playing it, I don't care about this aspect. It's my horn and I like to have my horns in tip top shape.

The only thing holding me back is the thought of getting my hands on a Super 20 and seeing how they compare, because if I end up selling the Zephyr, I will almost certainly not get the cost of the work back in the sale price.

Do any of you have experience comparing Zephyrs to their Super 20 equivalents? I am speaking specifically of the Zephs that were sold as the step down from the Super 20, not the earlier ones that were the top of the line instrument. Mine has the sheet metal keyguards and the triangle pants guard.

My understanding based on reading a lot of threads here is that this generation of Zephyr had a body tube that was dimensionally identical to its S20 contemporaries. Comparing to photos online, the keywork looks pretty similar, aside from the pinky table and a change to the bell key mechanisms at some point in the S20. Am I interpreting these photos correctly?

But logical reasons why they are or are not the same aside, does anyone have experience comparing a Zephyr of this vintage to a S20? Is the tone, intonation or response different? They keywork looks basically the same, but does it feel basically the same? How big a difference does the pinky table make, particularly if I can get around this one just fine?

I'd probably be looking at the Eastlake horns, by way of comparison, just because they seem to command a more affordable price than the earlier ones and by most accounts are excellent.

I'm mostly just trying to figure out if it's worth going and seeing what a Super 20 is all about before I sink a bunch of money into the Zephyr or if I'd be better off getting the Zephyr into tip top shape and stopping looking at Super 20s online. I suspect I am just looking up Super 20s online because they look so damn pretty!

Much of my information comes from this fantastic thread with some great contributions from @Swingtone, who it looks like is now banned, unfortunately.

 

[blaine hoopes]

It's been over 40 years since I owned Zephyrs and Super 20s. My memory is that the Zephyrs have great tone but the action on the Super 20 is just on a whole 'nother level. Also, other than bragging rights and how they look ... I never noticed anything about a silver neck/silver bell that mattered to me. I had them all and the Super 20 without either silver neck nor bell was the one I like the best. But maybe I just wasn't a refined enough player to discern or appreciate the difference.

 

[B Flat]

I’d agree.
I’ve had several Zephyr tenors and one S20.
I kept the S20 because it was better all round.
Tone and ergonomics.
Zephyrs are still good horns but well behind the S20’s.
The earlier S20’s were perhaps not quite so different but my Series III is in another league.
However if I were selling a Zephyr I might word it differently.
Like “poor mans super 20” or “Super 20 on a budget” but play one alongside the other and you’ll see that it’s just sales pitch.

 

[Zephyrwolf]

I agree that the action on the S20 is better. The horns sound very similar. I have a S20 full pearls and a couple Zephyrs. I have a Zephyr of the same vintage as yours. I think the Zephyr is the best value in a vintage horn. I don't think you are missing out on anything. I do love my S20 but its almost 4x the cost of my Zephyr. It is a really nice one, but its not 4x better.

 

[milandro]

About price difference much depends on where you are in the world.

In the NL Typically a good Zephyr ( and I am tlking of the latest series which are almost identical in everything but the keywork to the contemporary S20) you can buy one for €1500+ while a S20 will cost you €3000+ , under these circumstances ( provided I had the funds,, if I were looking for one of these two horns, I’d buy a S20 , I already own one and have owned also Zephyrs ) .

If, however, I had limited funds, I would go for the Zephyr and live with the mechanics (while probably secretly feeling bad about not having bought the superior S20) , to each his own.

I recently saw a Zephyr with an underslung neck , it has had not takers because it was delacquered (leaving the keys darker) but would be a nice horn, for someone

 

[Oric Muso]

There are different models of Zephyr. The later ones have S20 style guards and are a lot closer to being a S20. The main differences are in the bell key/ pinky table - which is much better on the S20, and the neck. Check Saxpics for some history of Zephyrs.

 

[JimD]

I've had a series 3 Super 20 for over 10 years and started looking for a Zephyr as a back up. Of course things soon got out of control, I lost one bargain and finally ended up with a Zephyr Special about 2 months ago. The Zephyr has a much richer, darker tone than the S20, I am also playing an RPC 115B. In terms of handling the S20 easily outstrips the Zephyr, with the Zephyr the low end still giving me problems which I put down to my having played the S20 for so long and it having the modern pinky layout. The Zephyr also feels bigger so I've had to accommodate myself to stretching a bit, this again is at the low end, so C feels further away as well as the, to me, curious LH low end stuff. As you have no problems with this it's probably not relevant. The rest of the keywork feels pretty much the same but the S20 is lighter and feels faster, this may be due to the set up, but both have been serviced in the last 6 months, or I may be being deceived by the brighter sound of the S20. Also I still approach the Zephyr as a new horn that I am becoming accommodated with so I'm not always as relaxed as I should be when I am I don't notice a difference with the action.

On my horns the intonation of the Zephyr is better across the horn but the top palm notes, notably the E and F#, need to be played in tune. Both horns are very responsive. I don't know if this will be helpful, neither horn is exactly like the ones your are referring to. I should add that when I got the S20 I picked it out of 5 and the others had nothing like the response of the one I bought and felt clunky in comparison, the others were later horns although still Cleveland.

If you are able to try out some S20s then that's the best approach, if you're not then I would hold off until you can or can get to try, and afford, something like a series 3, others will pile in and disagree with me but I can't help that. They aren't all created equal and if you like the Zephyr, which I think is equally as beautiful, I would stick with it unless it starts to irritate you, they are fine horns and I'm hoping and I'm expecting my "back up" Zephyr to become my main horn.

Finally, to me the S20 is a more modern horn in terms of feel and tone, but the Zephyr has a richness and beauty that is worth the struggle, and in your case expense. Talk to your tech and get is opinion, if he can improve it further then you probably don't have a problem.

I don't know if I've addressed the issues that are bothering you is if you have any specific questions please ask.

 

[allenlowe]

I have had both - and did extensive recording in order to A/B them, and could never hear any difference in the sound.

 

[AddictedToSax]

I read somewhere, maybe the King site, some ad copy about how the S20 was named
super 20 because King had made 20 improvements in the design of the new horn. I assume most of those had to do with ergonomics.

edit- I found it on the HN White website -

 

[Reet McVouty]

Well, the add is nothing more than marketing strategy. Yes, there are some things that are improvements but for the most part it's all just embellishment. Leak proof mouthpiece joint?

 

[dirty]

Hmm. Sounds like I will need to find a Super 20 to try and see, hear and feel for myself. Normally I'd just call up one of the handful of techs who buy and sell horns locally (Lee Kramka, Eric Drake, Steve Deutsch, etc) to see if they had anything around, but things aren't exactly normal these days, especially where cramming into a tiny shop and exhaling vigorously into a saxophone is concerned.

I'm definitely still interested in hearing everyone's experiences with these, though. It's always interesting and informative to tap into the collective knowledge and experience of this place.

 

[Reet McVouty]

The only King I've ever played is an old (1929) H.N. White "King" model. In fact I still have it but haven't played it in years. A sweet sounding horn but ergonomically speaking not very good. Anyway, as for the OP I would say it doesn't matter how it stacks up against any other horn. If you truly like the way it plays/sounds and you want it for your main horn then put the money into it. If you think that there's something better out there that awaits you, then find it and sell off the horns you don't play to recoup the cost. But remember, the grass is always greener on the other side, until it's not.

 

[moesenl]

owning a zephyr and a super 20 tenor, both in the range of 35x.xxx ( ~5months apart in manufacturing date).
They sound very similar. In my case, the necks are interchangeable from fitting point of view (but i need to tape the octave hole to get lower register if i swap the neck from one to the other.)
This ends up with 4 combinations that are all very similar and immediately recognizable as king but listening in and playing, there are differences (more/less projection, rounder sound).
keywork on S20 is definitely more user friendly, but then, my skills are not that "advanced" that the zephyr keywork is limiting my performance. S20 is more complex in the octave mechanism and i think that will likely need care/maintenance more often then the zephyrs.
Currently i use the S20 with V16 T77 mpc and the zephyr with an OL STM 7* (leveraging the s20 or zephyr to its best at least from my perspective/ears and taste)
As player, i value both setups equally although as indicated, they sound differently (but clearly related and king).
price_S20=2*price_zephyr.

my 2c/experiences, Luc

 

[JimD]

owning a zephyr and a super 20 tenor, both in the range of 35x.xxx ( ~5months apart in manufacturing date).
They sound very similar. In my case, the necks are interchangeable from fitting point of view (but i need to tape the octave hole to get lower register if i swap the neck from one to the other.)
This ends up with 4 combinations that are all very similar and immediately recognizable as king but listening in and playing, there are differences (more/less projection, rounder sound).
keywork on S20 is definitely more user friendly, but then, my skills are not that "advanced" that the zephyr keywork is limiting my performance. S20 is more complex in the octave mechanism and i think that will likely need care/maintenance more often then the zephyrs.
Currently i use the S20 with V16 T77 mpc and the zephyr with an OL STM 7* (leveraging the s20 or zephyr to its best at least from my perspective/ears and taste)
As player, i value both setups equally although as indicated, they sound differently (but clearly related and king).
price_S20=2*price_zephyr.

my 2c/experiences, Luc

Interesting, I can't interchange the necks as I thought I would be able to.

 

[whaler]

I’ve only played one Zephyr and the only thing I noticed was the intonation was somewhat out of whack in the registers, but I did like the sound.

 

[JayeLID]

I will chime in as well, having refurbed a good 25 'sweet-spot serial' Zephs and a good 15 or more S20's.

Sound/Tone....the same. The body geometries and neck geometries are the same, so this makes sense.

Blowing response....the same.

For the first 2 categories...IF there were subtle differences IMHO these are attributable to the variability of one vintage horn to the next, even in the same model, and not attributable to one being the 20 and one being the Zeph.

Ergos, key response/feel - the S20 is better.

I don't believe the 20's and Zephs to have interchangeable keys, actually....some are the same and can be....but many cannot be. This would indicate to me that indeed there were some keywork tweaks beyond just the table.

Now I find it funny the comment about the Zephs being worth the 'struggle' ...because IMHO....the sweet spot Zephs with the cloverleaf pinky table ....are the best feeling horns with vintage keywork there are. I would take a Zeph over a 'Crat, Conn Artist, or Comm III in the keywork feel dept. hands-down. So if there is an intimation that one 'sacrifices' something ergonomically in order to own a Zeph...I do not concur. Yeah the 20 is slicker, but the Zeph is quite good (within the good serial range).

Question ....IF you (OP) had it serviced to get it playable....WHY does it need a repad ?

Why not just bring it back to your tech and have him give it a cleaning and put maybe another $350 into it ? That should get you a significant amount of work and make it play even better than it does now.

 

[Reet McVouty]

Well, while this is about the Zephyr Special, I think it's informative to say the least.

 

[dirty]

Question ....IF you (OP) had it serviced to get it playable....WHY does it need a repad ?

I bought it online from a music store that had "overhauled" it. When it showed up, it was pretty clear that whoever overhauled it had no idea what they were doing. The pads were pretty low quality and not a single one was seated except for the ones that looked original, which were fairly dried out. Resos seem to have been selected at random, with totally arbitrary sizes on different keycups and none on the palm keys, front F or top side key. Pretty much everything leaked at least a little bit.

I brought it to a local tech that I trust and we agreed we would do the minimum to untangle some of the damage enough to determine if I liked it, but he definitely was frustrated at the quality of the pads and made it pretty clear that if he could do it with proper materials, it would be a lot better, which makes sense. My impression is that he got it to seal as well as it was going to seal with these pads.

Maybe I'm just being fussy, but I don't love the thought of having a bunch of mismatched, low-grade pads keeping the horn from playing as well as it could play. Obviously I like the way it plays now, but if it can play better, I might as well do that now and enjoy that for years to come, right?

 

[ptung]

IMO you have to separate altos from tenors.

I prefer Zephyr altos' overall sound to S20, personally, and intonation is not very different when the horn is right, but that can be rare in double-socket examples because very few people adjust double-socket necks correctly, and that is critical to the horn being "right."

Also, I think often (above), even when not intended the LH table differences are being included in an overall impression, even when discussing intonation and sound, and ergonomics on the whole, but when it comes to the alto there is less difference between Z and 20 in the main stacks and RH table.

Judgments about the whole of the mechanism are (not wrongly) based on overall impressions created by the LH table, where the stacks and other keys inherent feel and "action" are really not that different.

I prefer a Zephyr's main stacks because they are inherently rounder feeling to me than a 20's. To me a 20 is sort of more apt to feel like, viewed from above, the saxophone is sort of (FEELS) like it might be sort of triangular, where the Zephyr stacks are more inherently apt to feel rounder. The weight and mechanical actions themselves, though, are not that different as far as baseline "slickness," i.e. speed. The whole mechanism FEELS slower on a Zephyr because of the LH table IMO, whereas it's really mainly the LH table, only, that actually is objectively slower.

I loved a Zephyr alto that I changed the LH table on, and that is why this is more obvious to me than maybe to some others.

 

[AddictedToSax]

Well, the add is nothing more than marketing strategy. Yes, there are some things that are improvements but for the most part it's all just embellishment. Leak proof mouthpiece joint?

But some of it like a different bore and different octave mechanism do make a difference.