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How improvised is an improvisation ?

7K views 47 replies 29 participants last post by  theapocryphaltruth 
#1 ·
Hi all, on an average song how much of it is actually improvised 'on the spot' , or is the improvised part rehearsed to some extent ?
So if you play a song regular would you have some sort of skeleton of an idea about your improv and build on that or just turn up and do whatever happened on the night without any idea as to how it would go ?
Just interested. I'm just starting the learning process of the black art of improv on the handful of tunes I have. I have a couple of little lines that work well on some and am trying to expand on these and that's kinda where my question came from.
 
#7 ·
Oh my. What to do if it's atonal? :wink:
 
G
#3 ·
Basically, the way I like to think of it is improvisation is essentially "assembly" of ideas. Most jazz musicians have a library of predetermined licks (musical phrases) over particular chord sequences. So when it comes to improvisation you are picking and choosing from your library. Sure there is room for experimentation within the improvisation itself, discovering new ideas etc. but then if you find something that works, chances are this will end up in your library for next time. But I'd agree with Captain Beeflat: you look at the chords, and you know what will fit over them, or at the very least have strategies to play through the chords (scales, patterns etc.)

When I first started practicing improvisation, I used to record absolutely everything I played. When I heard something I liked, I'd listen to the recording and work it out, possibly write it down and learn it. Eventually I build up a collection of these ideas, and of course my library is still building, and will continue to build as long as I stay playing the sax.

Hope this helps.
 
#5 ·
Yeah, as above, in a nutshell you need some predetermined scales, phrases and patterns that you have practiced and learned. Then when you improvise you use that stuff as sort of a base for a solo and as you get more advanced and your ear gets better, hopefully things can happen that were not predetermined and there is a sort of flow to it. That's the beauty of it. Of course
this is a very simple, general explanation of the art. It's hard and it takes a long time to get really good at it for most people.
 
#6 ·
It's hard and it takes a long time to get really good at it for most people.
Never a truer statement , it sure is hard, but it does gradually get better ( I think ).

I find when I am relaxed , and feel confident, sometimes , all the work pays off ,just a little, for a few magic bars !

Blowhard2
 
#10 ·
I like to approach improvising much like having a conversation, since, in fact, your goal is to tell a musical story with the musicians you are playing with. In order to do that effectively, you have to know your vocabulary (scales, arpeggios, etc.) and your topic of discussion (the chord changes and melody to the tune you are playing). At that point, you will likely draw from ideas, phrases, patterns, etc., that you have practiced- just like you often use some of the same phrases and logic when you talk with your friends. The art of the improvisation comes in the creative assemblage of your vocabulary and the effectiveness of your musical story-telling skills.

Randy
www.randyhunterjazz.com
Online Jazz Lessons and Books
Lesson Series:
Making Sense of Jazz Improvisation
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#13 ·
I like to approach improvising much like having a conversation, since, in fact, your goal is to tell a musical story with the musicians you are playing with. In order to do that effectively, you have to know your vocabulary (scales, arpeggios, etc.) and your topic of discussion (the chord changes and melody to the tune you are playing). At that point, you will likely draw from ideas, phrases, patterns, etc., that you have practiced- just like you often use some of the same phrases and logic when you talk with your friends. The art of the improvisation comes in the creative assemblage of your vocabulary and the effectiveness of your musical story-telling skills.
I like the comparison to spoken language because, after all, music is a language that has a grammar/syntax (sometimes the same thing, depending upon to whom you discuss it with), vocabulary, methods of acquisition, and many other common characteristics.
 
#11 ·
I'm with Randy on this one, and would state it slightly differently: The start point is vocabulary. Where you want to end up is singing your own story through your horn. Too many put their goal at sounding like (name your favourite player) and get in a rut of copying and stringing together licks/arpeggios etc. May all be theoretically correct but nothing really coming from the player with the conviction of THEM telling the story, just a collection of bits and pieces laid out with no more conviction than someone selling junk at a swap meet.

Even when starting out try to always hear what it is you want to play (even if it's something copied) and then put yourself into it. Be committed. I'd rather hear a mistake made with commitment than a timid but accurate line that has no feeling.

Great example is Miles Davis. How many wrong/blown notes per tune? Lots! But what everybody hears is Miles soul speaking perfectly clearly, not the bum notes.
 
#14 ·
and , as in any spoke language one is bound to use all the possible arsenal of quotations, idioms, proverbs, aphorisms, poetic or artistic licenses, alliteration, assonance, dissonance, rhyme.........all of it can be conjured up impromptu and in a unprepared way (which is IMO the only real improvisation) or being studied at length and memorised as an actor does.

Mind you the fact that the playing is impromptu doesn't mean that one would make use of all the vocabulary (as we do in a improvised speech ) but the fact is that in this way the improvisation becomes a blaancing act (which I believe to be the only way one should improvise).

One would naturally end up off balance several times by attempting something different or unusual and in so doing go out of any pattern that one might consciously or unconsciously have been following to that point and then there would be the need to pick-up one's playing in the new situation, using any " mistakes" as a the trampoline to bounce into, hopefully, some other of the many things that we have stored in our heads until we reach another point (voluntarily or not) when we need to bounce back.
 
#16 ·
I don't know if I am agreeing or disagreeing with you here, but consider many of Sonny Rollins' extended solos. You can hear a lot of other players' vocabulary, quips, cliches,idioms, maxims, as well as his own incredible vocabulary and syntax.

And yes, good improv is a balancing act; one must make wise choices. "The weak use force; the powerful use restraint." I don't remember who said it-- Macchiavelli ("The Prince") or Sun Tzu ("The Art of War"). In any event, there is some wisdom there. Orators are well-rehearsed. So are good jazz musicians. They make informed choices.
 
#15 ·
For hundreds of years I have played Blues Harmonica...a most expressive, vocal, but limited instrument.
Consequently I naturally tend to play "harp" on sax....but, being chromatic rather than diatonic, it gives me more freedom, the roots are there however.
 
#22 ·
This always seems to come up as a point of contention on here when discussing improvisation. It's to dry or technical sounding if you just use scales,patterns or numbers, etc. which can be true. However strict ear players that actually don't have all that great of ear sound boring to me also. To me the best improvisers that play the most interesting solos use both their ear and patterns, scales, tensions,etc. Probably the most important thing in my opinion however is to know what something is going to sound like before you play it.
 
#23 ·
Almost 40 years ago I was invited to be the musical guest at a Unitarian Church near Allegheny College, and played an improvised offertory of about 4 minutes duration. Following the service an older gentleman approached me, and introduced himself as the College's composition professor, praising my compositional skills, noting the melodic and intervallic development, the general thematic structural organization and the overall character and quality of what I had played.
Following this effusive praise, he asked when I wrote the composition. With no small amount of self-satisfaction and a no lesser amount of confidence in my abilities as a player, I quietly advised him “I simply improvised it on the spot.” He stared at me for a moment, and walked away, quietly bewildered.
Once you understand and are fluent in the language (regardless of style) improvised expression is limited only by the ability of the player and the framework upon which the musical fabric is to be displayed
 
#27 ·
Something I think we all fail to mention here is that the old guys traditionally played off the melody of the song. They were sort of embellishing the original melody and playing something that made sense in the context of the original tune. I don't think they were thinking " let's see I think I'll play a a C7 bebop scale here and maybe a pentatonic lick with a b9 on that next change." Not saying there is anything wrong with that, just that it came later. I do think it's important to play something that fits the song however.
 
#28 ·
Some very accomplished "improvisers" practiced upwards of 15 hours a day to sound "spontaneous." As we all know, there are some licks that just do not "lay" naturally under the fingers and require repetition to learn to play them with facility. When taken to the extent that you want to be able to play in 12 different keys, it just seems reasonable to think that it's going to take a lot... A LOT of practice to get to the point that you know the "language" fluently.

How many times have you caught yourself or someone else saying "Stop me if you've heard this before..." For us older guys, it may translate to "Stop me if I've told you this before..." Improvising on an instrument is no different. Being original is not necessarily the norm... it may not even be good all the time. Don't sweat the small stuff, just become as fluent in the language as possible and join the conversation.
 
#30 ·
When taken to the extent that you want to be able to play in 12 different keys, it just seems reasonable to think that it's going to take a lot... A LOT of practice to get to the point that you know the "language" fluently.
How many concerts or albums do you hear that are in 12 keys? Why stop at 12? Why not practice atonal music? Where did you get your prescription for how to be a great player? Doesn't having a life make you play better?

Some very accomplished "improvisers" practiced upwards of 15 hours a day to sound "spontaneous."
Upwards of 15 hours? Think how good they would sound if they practice 23 hours a day.
 
#29 ·
I'm just starting the learning process of the black art of improv on the handful of tunes I have. I have a couple of little lines that work well on some and am trying to expand on these and that's kinda where my question came from.
I think you're going about it in the right way. Now just keep doing this for the rest of your life. :D

Seriously though, start by playing tunes you're familiar with and like to play. Embellish them with extra notes or run up or down to the note you're going to. Find the notes that fit the scales or chords of the song. See what sounds good to you and find out where you can go improvising off the melody. Keep exploring and expanding. Have fun.
 
#31 ·
Yep, been knocking on this door literally for years.
Agree with the view that one needs to learn the Jazz vocabulary. This is multi studies, like technical mastery of your horn, like massive ear training, deep listening to the players you like and heaps of woodshedding.

Some of the study is indeed like paint by numbers... & if you need to use this it to improve off the spot.... Do it, just keep the reasons you wanted to improvise inview & play with your emotion to the fore.
IMHO it's journey, not a destination

Cheers & Ciao
Jimu

1935 Conn naked lady alto & Blessings soprano
 
#33 ·
I like to start by using the melody and building an improv off bits of that. I use "licks" and runs too, usually to take me from point a to point b, but I try and come back to my theme several times if the solo is extended. I usually know (and save a tasty bit) exactly how I'm going to end a solo too. Call it a closing statement. A great improv takes you places or tells a Little story of sorts. A good story always has a killer ending.

Another "trick" is to repeat a little 3-6 note phrase like a guitarist does. It's nice because the listener can identify with the lick after a few passes. It's a bit like building a mini song within a song. You can easily eat up 4 bars with something like that and then move on with your tale...I've been working with a guitarist long enough that both of us recognize our signature phrases we use to come out of a solo. We've started doubling and extending those and audiences are eating that stuff up. It's pretty cool when two instruments grab a really fast lick and repeat it for 4-8 bars. Especially if you intensify it as you go and then drop back into the change together.

Hope that's both not too confusing and helpful in some way.
 
#37 ·
There are levels of improvisation. Remember that in J.S. Bach's time, the organ or harpsichord player got a bass line and a melody, with the numbers written between (like, say, II-V-I). The numbers might even have additional indications about the intervals - like I 6-4, which would indicate a second inversion (we would notate this C / G today).

The keyboard player was expected to know his harmony and be able to play the changes. While there may have been only 1 "right" way to play them, I'm sure that there were multiple little extra things added here and there.

Present day - lots of Nashville based musicians use a similar approach to reading chords. And many many guitarists and keyboardists are not able to read written notes, but do just fine if you plop a chord sheet down in front of them.

The point is - what is improvisation? It's playing the "right" notes at the "right" time, nothing more, nothing less. (Wind players, in particular, seem to know more notes than others...)

Seriously - we make a distinction between improvised and non-improvised music, but I think this is an artificial distinction. You have to know the style, you have to know how to phrase, how to "sing" to make it sound "right". Doesn't matter if the notes are printed or not - a good musician will make them sound good, a bad one won't.

Improvisation falls out of learning stuff by heart, and by relating what you learn to theory. Don't try to learn the theory first, it won't make sense (and for heaven's sakes don't learn "chord scales"!) Learn a tune by copying how a great player plays it. Transcribe a solo - or even just a bar! - learn it by heart, don't write it down. Then think about what you learned. You will be on your way.
 
#38 ·
from my limited time in jazz and on the sax, this is what i'd contribute to the OP's inquiry...
inprovising IS different than playing a written piece (like classical piano or a familiar guitar/mandolin melody/pattern). your brain actually works differently. it uses different parts/sections (this is shown in one or two scientific studies of musiicans and brain activity). so, you are gonna have to be patient in your learning, cuz it will take time to develop the use of this part. and you will have a tendancy to try and learn just as you have already been trained, which will get you frustrated. improv, or creating on-the-fly melody requires practice in doing just that. after all your vocabulary practice, after all your technical facility, pattern and scale practice, you still have to practice making things up as you go along.
.
here's something i think you are gonna have to battle... at first, your mind will have a tendency to go blank or to never 'wake up' when the music starts. this is normal (i think) for starting out, but learning in the styles of following sheets or memorized scores emphasizes this tendency. maybe your mandolin playing has enabled some improv playing? if so, great. if not, then (just like typical classical piano) your mind has been trained in a different way than what improv requires.
.... here's a simple practical suggestion to take that "old brain" practice/strength and apply it to learning to improv: pick a simple phrase ahead of time, say maybe the (scale degrees) 2 and root, and see what you can do with those/that in a rythmic and timing sort of improv. you may "get wild" and add a note above or below, but try and keep it simple, or your mind will get overwhlemed and lost. gradually increase notes as you progress.
.
also, bear in mind that fluent improv actually requires your instrument to be "invisible" to your mind. in other words, if you have to take effort/time to think about where a note/phrase/lick is, your mind will derail the "improv train" (AT LEAST momentarily) to concetrate on technical ideas (this is a different section of your brain). so, your relatively short time on the horn (6months) is gonna be restricitve to your improv ability on that instrument. be patient. you could prolly learn to improv faster on the other instruments that you are already familiar with (if you have good facility with them). matter of opinion, you may even consider learning improv on them so that you can develop/strengthen that part of your brain.
 
#41 ·
musiicans and brain activity
Surely an oxymoron if ever there was one :)

Huge thanks for all the useful input.

I can do some 'improv' on the mandolin and trad Irish allows for that but not to the extent that it does in jazz. I've played lot's of instruments and many different styles of music in the past and IMHO they all bring something to the table in helping me learn jazz sax.
I can relate to the poster that had the opinion that an improv should relate to the song and that's were I would be coming from, I'm finding once I find a "way in" that is once I pick out some part of the tune, I can then start to work out some little lines that work and play around with those.
Some tunes I can find a "way in" others I can't! But I'll keep knocking on the door...
I can only get better!

This thread has been a great insight for me, thanks to all who posted :)
 
#39 ·
Hi all, on an average song how much of it is actually improvised 'on the spot' , or is the improvised part rehearsed to some extent ?
So if you play a song regular would you have some sort of skeleton of an idea about your improv and build on that or just turn up and do whatever happened on the night without any idea as to how it would go ?
To give you an answer to your exact question:
You do whatever happened on the night without any idea as to how it would go.
There is nothing rehearsed in particular, but a trained improviser has
a) a bag of tricks and licks to use without rehearsal
b) the ability to sound the way he wants on the spot, in most cases this means some sort of logical yet still spontaneous flow in the improv.

This applies to most improvised things you hear, and probably all the good ones.
 
#40 ·
In 78' I took a jazz improv class at Cal State Northridge from a jazz pianist. I can't remember his name, but he was an alternate keyboardist for Supersax. He had us sing a phrase and then walk up to the piano and try to play it verbatim at pitch on the keys. Needless to say nobody but he could do it. I did learn alot about hearing lines in my head, then playing them on my horn. That was an outgrowth of his idea and I thank him for it.
 
#46 ·
Exactly. This is the essence. Sing first and duplicate on your horn. And ALWAYS build on the melody when improvising. Harmonies are just marking points. Try to compare the melody and the harmonies for Girl from Ipanema. Close to none of the melody notes appear in the chords. But they work.
 
#43 ·
it's similar to me typing an answer to this thread. yeah, i know words and stuff and generally it comes out in a certain order each time because that's how grammar is and how we communicate and understand each other. but i didn't know exactly what i was gonna type when i started this message to answer your thread. i had a general idea but not word for word message to deliver.

same with improvisation. you building up enough understanding and vocabulary (but honestly, it's best not to think of it this way because then it seems like you have a predetermined idea each time you play something or a phrase or something you'll use over and over, when that's not really improvising) then you have a song or subject and you say what you gotta say over it based on what you've learned from the past.

there's more to it, but i figure that's the general idea...
 
#44 ·
Good analogy. I like listening to the musicians who play with that vibe. But have you seen the guys who spend their day 'shedding the dictionary', so they can throw out the most obscure, difficult, and pretentious words and phrases? Maybe that's what people are calling the jazz nerds? It's weird because shedding is good, but there seems to be this over the top out of balance mentality in many areas: ie waiting in line for a 3 days to see a movie, or buy an electronic device, playing an mmorpg for 12 hours a day+ inorder to outdo those who thought it was actually a only a game... etc. Maybe it's our culture? If so we need balance. Bird said "if you didn't live it, it won't come out your horn". Highly technical bullcrap is possible.....
Everything in moderation
 
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