[ArchSax]

I'm a solid player in college, and I've really delved into understand bop language for the first time... I just have doubts about this whole, "use-licks" approach. I just kinda enrages me that creative thought isn't a priority to most players, it seems. The more I think about that approach, the less it makes sense. Think about it. Jazz is a language, no? It's musicians speaking to each other. To me, licks seem like telling someone to just answer, "Good" or "Bad" when you're asked, "How are you?" Sure, you have an "appropriate" response, but to someone that doesn't really understand English, they don't understand what they're really saying. I want to be able to tell someone, "Great, even though I'm tired of extremely tedious Music Theory I homework." I wanna play what I hear in my head, not what my fingers have memorized to do when they see D-7. I understand the concept of learning licks for technical skill and constructing lines, but why be so contrive as to actually use them in a solo? (Unless you hear it in your head.) Why should expression be contrived to "easy-way-outs?" Maybe because I'm a freshman, I know nothing and understand nothing. Can someone please give me the rationale?

PS: This is not to be confused with LEARNING licks or transcribing. But just USING them in real situations.

 

[cosmosis]

I guess you have to start somewhere to build a vocabulary and learn to speak the language. There are definitely good arguments for leaning patterns to learn how to get around the horn and around chords and scales. Transcribing is even better because you get to see how great players get around. I think it all boils down to taste. If people are parroting back patterns in their solos, maybe they have bad taste (or taste different than mine) or maybe that's all they aver practiced to associate with D-7. What you might do is spend some time with D-7 and hang out for a while there practicing and finding stuff that sounds good to you. Then when it comes along your fingers will have other material to pull from. Lots of time on the horn and you'll find your own way. I'm not a pro, so I'm sure someone else will chime in with better advice, good luck.

 

[Nefertiti]

Well, if you hear lines in your head then just play those. I have found that most people that make that statement actually aren't hearing anything in their head. When students tell me this I say "OK,lets work on playing what's in your head..........I'll play a chord and you sing me the idea that you would like to play over. I've never had a student just bust out and sing a killer line. Most just say they can't do it.

You learn and play licks so that you can understand the history and speak the language. You can change the lines any and every which way you can think of but you have to start with something. When I'm teaching I use licks to demonstrate concepts to students. They can hear it and decide for themselves if it sounds cool and is worth learning for them. When I'm playing a jazz gig I personally try to stay away from licks. I think more melodically and I try to play off of the other players in the group.

 

[gwd1]

The voice leading contained in many of the "licks" that we learn and use is essential to really having command of the language. Having all 12 notes truly available to you only happens when you can hear all the standard resolutions. To use your analogy of language, what I hear in players who haven't absorbed language in this way might sound like the following:
Q: "How are you?"
A: "Cat, pancake house...fish."

All valid pieces of language, but when used out of context and not "resolved" properly there is really no meaning behind them...

 

[dogbert]

I think that Steve makes a good point here. A child will imitate its parents (or other children) when learning to speak. It will not hear phrases in its mind that have not been said by other people. We all hear phrases when growing up and eventually make them (or combinations of them) "our own" over time.

I only occasionally hear phrases in my head before actually playing them. I may not be very talented (in fact I know I'm not), but then I think the really talented cats just get it faster than me (they won't hear phrases in the cradle, .

Thomas

 

[piwikiwi]

Ear training lots of it.

 

[Meatballfoot]

My posts on the topic of licks generally get me in trouble. I have strongly been against licks/riffs in the past, but I now think that dwelling too much on this notion only builds stress and hurts confidence while soloing. It's difficult enough to simply get in the improv mindset, and an important part of this mindset is eliminating self doubt. This is why I support learning licks that you love. If you love it, you won't beat yourself up over using it a few times in a solo, and your creative process will be more relaxed and productive.

 

[princeplanet]

A lot of pros I think agree with this statement" "You play what you hear, but you hear what you know".......

 

[Kelly Bucheger]

I just kinda enrages me that creative thought isn't a priority to most players, it seems.

That would enrage me too. Where did you get that idea?

When you're playing licks, you're ingraining the vocabulary and texture of how bebop works -- how lines resolve, what gives lines forward momentum: the flow of the music, and some of its harmonic rules.

Many years ago, when I started learning German, we'd learn simple dialogs like:

Wo ist Monika?
Im boot.

Instead of thinking "This is stupid! I'll NEVER say that. I don't even KNOW a Monika..." I memorized the phrases. And: I started to understand the "look and feel" of German, and how the grammar works. And later, visiting Germany, I even used portions of the dialog phrases to generate my own statements.

Remember, the licks ain't the *destination* point, they're the *starting* point. Good luck!

 

[piwikiwi]

You need to know stuff before you can create stuff

 

[Dave Wright]

A lot of pros I think agree with this statement" "You play what you hear, but you hear what you know".......

This sums it up for me , the two go hand in hand . Which is why it's important to chose carefully what you decide to study/practice because ultimately it's what will come out mostly. Pretty obvious really

 

[DanPerezSax]

I agree with all the posters in this thread so far. To add to that, click the link in my signature on building vocabulary. It goes into some detail about the process I use to build vocabulary that I can use in a creative way.

 

[saxpiece]

Remember, the licks ain't the *destination* point, they're the *starting* point.

And that is the problem.

Everyone learns certain things at first when they are starting out but how many Charlie Parker licks or whoever, does anybody need to know before they start mixing up their own stuff because competent improvisers are not just a grab bag of licks, they are players who can come up with something themselves to fit the musical situation or respond to the musical situation or create a musical situation.

Take Charlie Parkers omnibook, there are patterns obvious to just casual reading through, how Charlie uses chromatics, how he uses the b9, etc etc and these are a part of Charlies style and no one really needs to go through all of Charlies licks note for note, all they need is an awareness of what Charlie was using and how he used it and they do not need a note for note collection of Charlie Parker licks remembered and learnt because what they should be doing is carving their own Charlie Parker like lines from chromatics and b9 arpeggios etc etc.

Take the devices Charlie was using and put them together yourself because it is beneficial to arrive at things your way and put them together your way and to do it on the fly without falling back on lick number 37.

Different musical styles have different devices that work for that style.
Pentatonics work in Funk and Rock but don't usually work in the same way as in Bop.

How hard is it to get a Blues pentatonic and make up your own blues licks with it.
If someone has a feeling for the Blues in the first place then they will work out ways to do things with the Blues pentatonic by themselves, if someone has limited feeling for the Blues in the first place then no collection of licks or no book will give them a feeling for the Blues so just don't play the Blues.

To me, improvisers are certain types of players that have an instinct and feeling for what they do and that can't be learnt just from licks but some licks and musical devices are learnt early on by these players but they move on to their own playing and not everyone who wants to do this can do this so it seems.

 

[RootyTootoot]

Well, if you hear lines in your head then just play those. I have found that most people that make that statement actually aren't hearing anything in their head. When students tell me this I say "OK,lets work on playing what's in your head..........I'll play a chord and you sing me the idea that you would like to play over. I've never had a student just bust out and sing a killer line. Most just say they can't do it.
.

But with practice I think that might get easier (??) I think composition and listening are (maybe??) more important than learning licks. This is an area I still struggle with a lot in terms of methodology. eg. I find myself preparing students for exams where they have to play a Parker solo (for example), yet I end up feeling that the materials rarely surface in their own soloing in a meaningful way. So maybe the time would be better used on a task like "compose a bebop tune" or more of the kind of aural stuff you are describing which is then translated onto the instrument and in plenty of listening and analysis. Just thinking aloud here, really. As I say, I'm hardly clear on this myself.

 

[mike713]

The other aspect of licks in the context of bebop is that if you listen to a lot of Bird, you'll realize he had a TON of licks that he played over and over again. The thing that made it work is that they were HIS licks, so by playing them all the time he ended up sounding exactly like himself. One thing you could do if you want to get into bebop but don't want to sound like a bird clone is transcribe licks from other bop players like Dizzy or Bud Powell. Bebop is like anything - it's a pretty specific idiom, so there are idiomatic ways of shaping a line or a phrase, or idiomatic harmonic devices. You could call them licks, but in the end it's just like what other people have said - it's learning the language.

 

[saxpiece]

A lot of great players with a recognizable style are playing their same licks in different situations over and over again and that's one of the big reasons why they have a recognizable style in the first place and the licks are their own licks that they arrived at one way or another.

 

[davetjazz]

Jazz isn't about making **** up.

It's about making **** up and landing on your feet.

Kenny Werner talked about just working over one chord sequence if you have problems with it. if F#dim7 - B7b9 / Em7 takes all the wind out your sails but the bars before it didnt? Stop the tune. Work over that progression until you have 10 ways to get around that sequence. Transcribe 10 different licks on that progression. See what Art Pepper, Bird, Tristano, Cannonball, Bud, Jarrett etc have to say over that progression. And you play your own improvised line on it, and COMPARE. Why are those guys so swingin and I sound like I'm strangling a frog?

Changing the way you practice..

 

[saxpiece]

See what Art Pepper, Bird, Tristano, Cannonball, Bud, Jarrett etc have to say over that progression. And you play your own improvised line on it, and COMPARE. Why are those guys so swingin and I sound like I'm strangling a frog?

Well, they are themselves and other people aren't.

No one can learn a great improvisers thing, it isn't just a case of a bag of tricks to learn or even a great deal of practice.

They see musical situations their way and other people see musical situations their way and some improvisers just have more appeal than others to other people.

Copying Charlie Parker note for note means what?

No one will ever play new solos like Charlie could, so take the devices that Charlie and others were using in a general way and mess around with them and if you have something to say then it will come out otherwise it won't and it will hopefully not sound like a clone of Charlie Parker but something different that somehow you produced yourself and are happy with.

 

[davetjazz]

Definitely some improvisers have more appeal than others. Cause this is partly about individual tastes. Somebody might have cringed when I said Keith Jarrett or Tristano etc. Mark Turner talked about his style saying something along the lines of he never really thought about it, just learned the music he liked and the conception formed from there.

That statement might contain the root of all this. If you learn what you like, you'll be on the road to happiness. But sometimes you might have to learn what you don't like, to get to the place to even comprehend what you do like? I dunno.

Hmm, that's the other problem. You aren't transcribing to learn their thing. You're transcribing to learn the language out of which you will have the material to play your own thing.

I think Miles Davis represents a great mold to look at to play jazz. We all heard those solos when he was a sideman with Bird. He had his own thing already, but it was rough and undeveloped, he was dealing with the influences of the day, trying to learn the music.

Miles talked about trying to learn every Dizzy solo haha. Dig Miles on Madness - Nefertiti...or E.S.P. You can hear the technique that he gained from those years of chasing around Dizzy, Bird and Fats etc.

And it took years for him to solidify his own sound.

I wish I could copy Bird note for note. He played some interesting stuff that I can't hear clearly yet, but by adopting what he played it could hope to open up a clearer vision of what I wan't to play.

As of today I only learned a few of his solos. 1st chorus of There's A Small Hotel. Just Friends, Cheryl, and Ornithology.

 

[jordanreed]

Every lick you play has been played before..imo