Mornin all. Just yesterday i was speaking to a young man about horns. Tenors. I know little alto etc. I was explaining as to why i prefer vintage American tenors. He asks.." why are you selling one "... " one what? "...i reply. " A vintage American tenor "...turns out he meant the Barone. After explaining, i was after a project horn. I tried to make sense, for him, of the ridiculous categories dealers encourage to sell their stuff. I could not do it, and keep a straight face. Man what a load of nonsense...really!! Stuff is either old or new...it cant be both. A load of baloney ( please note the Sunday language ). Bit like " Jazz" reeds?? What happens if i play R&R on them? Do they not work? OK...rant over...thank you for your time, enjoy your Sunday lunch....a
horns..new,vintage,"new vintage".."vintage new"????
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I posted something along this very subject line a couple weeks ago. The term "vintage" is generally used incorrectly in most descriptions. It's primarily the way wines are described, e.g. "vintage 1975 Mondavi Cabernet," etc. Saying "vintage tenor sax" for sale doesn't adequately describe or define the instrument. Any seller can of course use any terminology he wishes, but for accuracy the listing should be: "Vintage 1976 Conn Director . . . " That accurately defines the year of manufacture, which is what the seller should be describing. Saying "vintage Conn . . . " is meaningless. What "vintage" is it? In short, the term does not define old or new, it just tells the buyer when the grapes were picked . . . or when the horn was manufactured. Maybe someone will want to sell his "vintage 2011 Selmer," nothing wrong with that. So relax, take a deep breath, and enjoy the day ;-)
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Yes chaps, Vintage is the new "Buzzword" it draws the unsuspecting like a "moth to a flame"!
Time does play tricks though, when I started in the mid60's a 1936 Conn would be 30years old right? and I thought that was ancient! I've just picked up a 1971 YTS 4 digit SN. and that's 40 years old--and I call it "modern" !!! go figure!
Time does play tricks though, when I started in the mid60's a 1936 Conn would be 30years old right? and I thought that was ancient! I've just picked up a 1971 YTS 4 digit SN. and that's 40 years old--and I call it "modern" !!! go figure!
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I agree with ya' there. It burns my toast when contemporary mfr's slip that word into their model names....and soooo many mfr's do it.
I dig where you are coming from although I don't quite agree 100% with you, TF...because I feel "vintage" can be an adjective...The wine allusion isn't really appropriate in the case of musical instruments.
A general rule of thumb that folks on other instrument/musician Forums use is that if the axe in question is about a generation (+/- 25 years) old or older, "vintage" is an appropriate term. So Bopity...you can correctly call your YTS "vintage" !
And TF..."Vintage 2011 Selmer" is most definitely not cool. It's actually as downright silly as the OP's initial example, and I would imagine it would elicit similar chuckles.....
And while I agree that a "Vintage Conn Sax" doesn't say too much...it at least tells you it's a generation old or older (if the describer uses the term correctly).
Which makes it laughable when a modern maker calls one of their models "Vintage".
Another one which kills me : "Antique". :faceinpalm:
There are some crappy sellers on eFlay selling their crappy asian horns and titling the auctions "Antique". Yeah...why ? Because it has a faux finish ! Get it ? It's an Antique Saxophone. :fftheai:
I dig where you are coming from although I don't quite agree 100% with you, TF...because I feel "vintage" can be an adjective...The wine allusion isn't really appropriate in the case of musical instruments.
A general rule of thumb that folks on other instrument/musician Forums use is that if the axe in question is about a generation (+/- 25 years) old or older, "vintage" is an appropriate term. So Bopity...you can correctly call your YTS "vintage" !
And TF..."Vintage 2011 Selmer" is most definitely not cool. It's actually as downright silly as the OP's initial example, and I would imagine it would elicit similar chuckles.....
And while I agree that a "Vintage Conn Sax" doesn't say too much...it at least tells you it's a generation old or older (if the describer uses the term correctly).
Which makes it laughable when a modern maker calls one of their models "Vintage".
Another one which kills me : "Antique". :faceinpalm:
There are some crappy sellers on eFlay selling their crappy asian horns and titling the auctions "Antique". Yeah...why ? Because it has a faux finish ! Get it ? It's an Antique Saxophone. :fftheai:
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...yup, basically.... there you have it....
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I find it the use of the term 'vintage' sometimes throws up odd connotations. For example, Antigua's new horn claims to used Vintage Reserve (tm) brass - and every time I open my fridge I'm reminded of it by a block of Cheddar cheese labelled 'Vintage Reserve'.
I bet you're thinking what I'm thinking...
Regards,
I bet you're thinking what I'm thinking...
Regards,
I'm not looking to argue or disrespect anyone. This is just further clarification of my opinion as to how the term "vintage" is so often incorrectly used. The reference to wine was simply to describe from whence the term derived. No doubt you've looked at the etymology of the term; the first 3 letters pretty much give a hint as to what the word's all about; "vin" - wine. To be sure modern usage has made many words into something for which they weren't intended: consider for example "fax" for "facsimile." That's now a verb - "I'll fax it,' as well as a noun. I used the "vintage 2011. . . " simply as a description of the silliness of the use of the term. Sure, you want "vintage" to be a verb, adjective, noun, pronoun? Be my guest. I just think using a perfectly good term incorrectly is, well, incorrect. So I'll continue to offer my stuff for sale, when appropriate to the item, as "vintage 19xx," which more accurately defines the age of the item, whether or not it's "old" or "antique," which are terms that really don't apply to the "vintage" appellation.
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I think we just discussed this same subject about two weeks ago. I even gave some of the predominant definitions in that thread.
Just remember that all is fair in love and war. And there are no reserve-words in marketing. :bluewink:
Just remember that all is fair in love and war. And there are no reserve-words in marketing. :bluewink:
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Indeedy, there are not....which is why that, um...particular line of work....coining catch names & coming up with ways to push a product.....places those particular practitioners.... below the level of the banana slug......
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Don't you go dissin' my alma mater's mascot here...
Grafton + TH & C alto || Naked Lady 10M || TT soprano || Martin Comm III
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I partially agree with this. But when you are in the position that you need to come up with a brand or model name, you find this a very difficult task. Finding a name that is relevant, different, not misleading but attractive has to be one of the hardest jobs around. but I agree, I find deceptive marketing through misleading labels a very bad thing. "Vintage" is one such misleading label as we have seen.
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