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Alto: YAS-62S Conn Trany 6M Jupiter JAS-868 JAS-769 / Tenor: YTS-23 & 52 P. Mauriat 66R Holton 241
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi,
A friend of mine offered me to trade his Beaugnier made Vito tenor saxophone for my Holton 241 tenor saxophone. His saxophone is similar to the Duke Model but less engraved. What do you think about it? Would it be a fair deal?
Thank you very much in advance.
 

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I have always wanted to have both of those horns.

What kind of music do you play, mostly?
 

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I have had both. I currently have the 241. The tone on the 241 is better and the ergos on the Beaugnier is better.
 

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Research says:

241 v. Vito Beaunier

241/Holton

I think they are very 10m like in sound
https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?242143-Holton-241-Tenorsax-Enthousiast-Which-year


Yeah.. the 241 is a little more hollow-sounding than a 10M

ditto


I played a Holton tenor before and it was really nice, sort of similar to a Conn.
https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?31531-Holton-241-Tenor-Serial-No-195***


I bought a 241 in great condition from SOTW marketplace for $400. When I played for the first time I was amazed by it tone and it ergos. Sound is mellow but also powerful, darker than my Big B.
https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?214974-Holton-Tenors



Tone: Classic American-style tone: BIG and VERY flexible. Did I say BIG? For perspective, we're talking Conn 10M BIG, though with a bit of that sultry darkness of The Martin Tenors mixed in (Yup, that's right!). (My guess is that Holton copied the Conn 10M body tube, and that the thick, heavy brass gives the tone some of that Martin color). I've used this horn for everything from sultry ballads (dark and warm) to mainstream bebop (vintage sound, especially with an Otto Link) to funk and pop (good with a higher-baffle mouthpiece). You name it, it will do it ... and will surpass your expectations. Head to head with a Selmer SBA, they were indistinguishable in tone quality ... seriously. The friend whose SBA I compared it to was present when I test-played the Holton. He said flat out: "If you don't buy it, I will."
https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?71134-Holton-Playing-Tendencies


I had a Holton "241" tenor in college that I bought for $400 from my tech (this was a while ago). It played pretty well - but really roared after I had it overhauled a few years later. The sound was always very good - the keywork was OK - but not incredable. The engraving was a starburst like your alto. Good player overall.
https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?48586-quot-Modern-quot-Vintage-Holtons


It has a classic American vintage sound (which I prefer to the more focused, "refined" sound of French saxes): robust, boistrous, and hearty. I've never found it wanting, and I've been playing (and gigging) for years.
um.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?48586-quot-Modern-quot-Vintage-Holtons





The Bueschers I have played have a great top end, The Conns have a great bottom. This is due to bore size and design. My 1939 Holton 244 seems to be a good comprimise between the two, much like the modern Keilworth.
https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?48586-quot-Modern-quot-Vintage-Holtons/page4


I always liked Holtons and with various mouthpieces, they can sound very classic or very edgy.
https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?222476-Holton-owners-club/page2


Vito Beaugnier Tenor

I liken those old Beaugnier built saxes to Balanced and Super Balanced Action Selmers, but with better intonation, and easier overtone series, and at a fraction of the price!
https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showt...enor-what-a-horn!-Looking-for-a-new-thumbrest



The Vito Beaugnier-stencil tenor, being made in France, has the French sound. A Beaugnier tenor should not be any different. My Vito Beaugnier, for example, has a wonderful tone full of resonance and color and I'm often asked what kind of sax it is and what setup am I using to make that happen.

I bought my Vito Beaugnier tenor from honkytone a couple of years ago for under $800 and it plays, IMHO, as good as French-made horns (read Selmer) the least expensive of which cost several hundred dollars more.
https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?87582-BEAUGNIER-Tenor


Saturday, I play the Vito with the first neck in my big band. The horn KILLS in a louder setting. Very Selmer-ish, but with a much better lower end. Played the whole rehearsal with the Vandoren V16 T8.
https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?220495-Vito-Special-Duke-tenor-sound


BigDaddyJ, I have found a Beaugnier Duke. I was very lucky as those horns are very difficult to find in Europe. I do confirm: it is definitely a great sax. As a figure of speech, I would say that it is like a sport car. Fast, light and powerful. Very center tone, a bit lyrical, with a strong projection. The sound goes straight forward. Tuning is great and the keywork light and accurate. I don’t really find any weakness.

Ditto


It's a Beaugnier made tenor, and these are among the best horns they made. Not just 'decent' but very good and certainly worth overhauling.
https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?236506-What-can-you-tell-me-about-my-Vito-tenor




I current play a Beaugnier made Vito Duke Special, similar to yours, which I purchased in pristine condition with a full repad and service (for quite a bit more than $499, by the way). I researched and studied before making the purchase, and I am a vintage horn afficianado of sorts. I went into it specifically looking for this particular horn, that's how strongly I felt about the value, reviews and potential.

I've been playing on it for about a year now, and it is simply an amazing horn.
https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?236506-What-can-you-tell-me-about-my-Vito-tenor/page2


french vito are very respected horns and great value for the money.
https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?122052-French-Vito



I would guess it's a Beaugnier Vito. If so, mine is one of the best tenors I've played, and there have been many. I frequently get compliments for the tone.
Ditto
 

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Alto: YAS-62S Conn Trany 6M Jupiter JAS-868 JAS-769 / Tenor: YTS-23 & 52 P. Mauriat 66R Holton 241
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thank you for the your replies. From the resale perspective, are both horns in the same price range?
 

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The Vito would probably fetch a bit more depending on condition. I won't ever sell my 241 and I have a large collection of tenors. However part of the reason is the resale is poor on the 241. It would sell for a few hundred and the tone is glorious. Not worth parting with it. I prefer the Beaugnier tenors with left side bell keys. I have had several of them over the years.
 

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Alto: YAS-62S Conn Trany 6M Jupiter JAS-868 JAS-769 / Tenor: YTS-23 & 52 P. Mauriat 66R Holton 241
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Thank you for your replies. I have the Vito, the owner left it to me for a leak checking (serial number is 583A so I assume it was made in the USA, Model 120?). I was lucky to have the chance to have both saxophones for a couple days so I'll play them side by side for making a decision. I attached pictures of The Vito.
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Musical instrument Reed instrument Wind instrument Woodwind instrument Flute Musical instrument Automotive lighting Hood Motor vehicle Brass instrument
Musical instrument Automotive lighting Wind instrument Drum Brass instrument Musical instrument Reed instrument Wind instrument Wood Woodwind instrument

The neck is slightly pulled down but I guess this should not affect intonation nor tone.
Musical instrument Wind instrument Brass instrument Automotive exhaust Household hardware
 

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Alto: YAS-62S Conn Trany 6M Jupiter JAS-868 JAS-769 / Tenor: YTS-23 & 52 P. Mauriat 66R Holton 241
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
And this is my Holton:
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As saxcop told, the Holton tone seems to be far better but I'm unsure about if the Vito is sounding the best it can.
 

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I have a 241 made in 1948 and a Beaugnier-made VITO(16,xxx) and like the 241 more . If had to decide I'd keep the 241 !
 

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Well, there's nothing better than having both in hand to decide for yourself! I look forward to hearing what you decide, it would be a tough decision for me!
 

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Thank you for the your replies. From the resale perspective, are both horns in the same price range?
5 years ago I would have said 'yes'. But it seems now the Beaugnier 'Duke-ish" model would be more valuable by a $300 or so.

Let's just be clear here, however...VERY clear: The French horn, if described as a Duke model, will have the more 'modern' style pinky table, tilted keys with a right-side hinge/pivot. This kind of model was sometimes also labeled a "Special" .
I mention this only because I have come across some folks saying they have one of these, when in fact what they have is just a right-side bellkey horn with the standard Beaugnier table.

SO...yes, the Holton is gonna be darker and wider....very much Classic American Tenor in tone and response. The Beaugnier is gonna be...well...ummm.....French. More focused, a tad brighter, a tad more edgy in tone. Most players might say the ergos on the French horn are a bit slicker.
3 years ago I would have said that too.

But as time goes by....I am personally beginning to feel that ...while the Dukes DO have what can be described as a 'modern' table....it isn't really the best table, IMHO. For me, the touches on it aren't quite as 'conveniently located' as on many other 'modern table' horns. Still a great horn, but not quite as quick under hand as it LOOKS like it would be, IMHO.

Anyways..a bit of a dilemma, really.

I was gonna say: If he is your friend, maybe trade the horns for a trial period ????? Swap 'em back if one of you is unsatisfied. Looks like you did that.

Pulldown will not be a big factor in horn's performance, but obviously if you keep it, get it fixed.
 

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Let's just be clear here, however...VERY clear: The French horn, if described as a Duke model, will have the more 'modern' style pinky table, tilted keys with a right-side hinge/pivot. This kind of model was sometimes also labeled a "Special" .
I mention this only because I have come across some folks saying they have one of these, when in fact what they have is just a right-side bellkey horn with the standard Beaugnier table.


Pix show a left side bell key horn with the Conn copy table, except with the switchable G# link.

I have the bass sax version of this and it's a good horn in my opinion but bass is too different from tenor for my experience to really mean anything for a tenor. My horn has tapped holes on the keys for the switchable link but no link and no evidence it was ever present. I guess the touch pieces were common amongst many models. I think it would be cool to get that mechanism and install it.
 

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I had a Duke Beaugnier, I liked it, but I did not like the pinky cluster. I found it to be small, almost for a young person's hands instead of an adult. At least, that's what I remember. I had a Holton for awhile, but it really needed an overhaul and you have to be careful putting money into them as their resale value is low. Personally, condition being close, I would keep the Holton.....
 

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I recently bought a pristine example of a Beaugnier/Vito tenor just like the OP's and completely rebuilt it. Here is a rambling blog about it. I've had a similar "Revere" Beaugnier stencil before. I've only rebuilt a Holton alto, so I can't compare either Beaugnier/Vito to a Holton 241 tenor.

There were a couple of quirks in the Vito rebuild, most notably with the neck (as discussed in the blog). The other quirk I sort of caused myself. I like to lighten the spring tension as much as possible. I lightened the Eb palm key too much (to reduce pad wear caused by a deep seat), resulting in a warbling 1D and an unstable 2D. I chased that around awhile before realizing that the horn's harmonic vibration was causing a tiny leak at Eb palm that wasn't visible with a leak light when not playing the horn. It has taken a bit of time, but getting a vintage horn dialed in is part of the fun for me (and not having to pay shop fees).

As to value, I'd like to get $1,000 for the Vito, but that is unlikely. So it is kind of a backup to my backup tenor. In reality, I take it out to practice (or out of the house) when the spirit moves me to hear a more "sophisticated" sound than my Martins. That's not to say that the Vito is a one trick pony. It is an impressive all round horn, with only the setup determining whether it is student or professional saxophone.

Mark
 
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