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Well...a President (Hohner) in immaculate shape can fetch about $800-1000...although there was one recently which was practically NOS and it didn't get interest at a $1000 opening bid.

Now...this horn seems a later vintage than a President...and it isn't even engraved "Hohner"....so I am sorta wondering where the seller came up with that provenance.

I am surprised it got bid on, also.

I mean, one can certainly say that any Max Keilwerth which plays for under $1g is gonna be a good buy.

Or one can argue that this horn has already fetched over it's actual market value....


BUT ! Here's the thing...that horn doesn't look very Keilwerth-esque to me. Wrong bellbrace, wrong spat keys, wrong keyguards.

Apparently, there was another model called the Senator:

http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showth...r-tenor-Keilwerth-stencil-or-possibly-related

And...whenever it's a question of an obscure European-made sax, ya' gotta visit Helen:

http://bassic-sax.ca/version5/vinta...es/dorfler-jorka/dj-stencil-galleries/senator

So, Helens's pics show there IS a JK/D&J stencil engraved "Senator"...which is probably a pretty darn good horn ....and indeed is vintage..... and German !

:| But it ain't this horn in this here auction. :|

Heeere's a Keilwerth-made (or Keilwerth designed and D&J-made) Senator Tenor:

http://www.marshwoodwinds.com/viewItemPrinterFriendly.asp?ItemID=1706

(I have an identical horn engraved "Paragon". It kicks #ss....)

But it ain't this horn in this here auction. :|

I would say the seller may have done some research, but not knowing saxes... failed to account for the fact that this horn doesn't have the usual attributes of either Max or Julius' horns by a long shot....plus I have never come across nor heard of an un-serialed Keilwerth.

Plus I am pretty sure they always read "Germany" on 'em.

My theory: :homework: The guy saw the name of the instrument shop/distributor which happens to be in Germany, and assumed it to be German-made.

(Mauriats are made in France, right ? It says so right on the horn !!!)

So then he researched a German-made Senator sax, and concluded it to be a Keilwerth, because online searching would lead one towards that.

But a decent eye for instruments would have told him that his horn fails to resemble any Keilwerths of any kind...

So, I suspect what he is selling is a sax which a German music store had subcontracted to an asian manufacturer, probably in the '80's or so....

:| Ooopsie-Daisy :fftheai:
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Yep, I told him I thought from the photos it was probably a Taiwanese or Chinese horn, it has no engraving or even a serial number...I originally gave him the benefit of doubt about his description and his intent, but now someone has actually bid on the thing I feel like something should be done, but what?
 

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I know...that sucks. That buyer is gonna be hella pissed.

I dunno what avenues a good samaritan has in this instance, however...other than directing the seller to this thread and urging him to pull the auction before he gets into a dispute once the horn gets to the buyer....

I mean, one can report a listing as fraudulent...because technically, it is...

BUT, I do not think it is intentionally fraudulent...so I dunno if eFlay would step in.....I sorta doubt it.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
The seller "thanked me for my input" but said it had already been verified as a German made Hohner by 2 "sax experts, one here in Atlanta and one in Seattle"
I then directed him to Helen's Hohner page which is full of photos of the real thing and heard nothing back.
I know ebay is buyer beware...I can just imagine some kid going to his tutor saying "there's a great looking old Hohner on ebay are they any good?" and ending up with some homebrand horn for big money.
Anyone else have any ideas how to stop this happening?
Or want to chime in, maybe I might direct the seller here...
 

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I contacted him as well...maybe if 3 or 4 folks contact him, he will get the drift. I also sent him to this thread.

$700 for some unknown 80's-ish asian stencil horn....oomph....I hope we can cut this one off at the pass....
 

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Quick update.... Direct from the listing...

"This listing was ended by the seller because the item is no longer available"

Nice work, kids!!!
 

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Oh I love this stuff... I laughed my butt off at the "high tenor" "low baritone" description. If he really had "2 sax experts" look at it, wouldn't they have told him it's a tenor? I'm just saying...

Anyways... Onto the horn itself. I saw the auction when it first got posted. BTW, the auction has now been ended by the seller. I guess he decided to do the right thing because he realized he was wrong after all. I'm not sure where he got the idea that it was a Hohner or any other Keilwerth brother horn. Had he looked at my site, he might have even thrown in the F.X. Hüller name, since they had a World model. :bluewink:

There is no doubt about the fact that this "RARE Hohner tenor baritone saxophone" is indeed an Asian-built horn. It is quite possibility from the same company that makes the modern Hohners that seem to occasionally pop up on the German eBay site. I uploaded a tenor I had in my files this morning so you could compare them. The tenor Hohner from the German eBay does look quite similar to this horn from the Musik-Schaller music store in Kaiserslautern, Germany. Although, the photos are small, it's hard to say for sure, and so many of these stencil horns all look the same. In any event, if you look at the other modern Hohners I have in my gallery (the alto and the soprano) you'll see that they have nothing in common with the German-made Presidents, and are in no way related to these fine vintage horns.

With regards to the Senator tenor being sold by Marsh Woodwinds, that is a D&J horn. The serial # lines up to the very early models of the Dörfler & Jörka saxes. Apparently they had these types of key guards. (Or at a minimum, these guards were an option that was available during the early time of D&J's existance.) I was recently sent photos a beautiful silver plated Hopf Classic tenor that someone has owned since new. According to the email I received, the fellow's father bought the horn in 1956 in the town of Frankonia (West) Germany. At the time, the horn cost a whopping 600 DM!! That was a lot amount of money for a saxophone at the time. (I'll upload the photos to my gallery later and update this post with a link to the pics). This silver plated tenor is going for an overhaul this summer, and I'll be getting the "after" pictures. It will be a stunning horn.

I'm interested JayeSF in that you say you have the same horn with the "Paragon" name. That is a new D&J stencil name for me. Interesting. Do you have pics posted anywhere? I'd love to see it.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Yeah, thanks guys...after I directed him to Helens Hohner page he replied that they looked the same apart from the engraving(!!!) and that his research on a German sax forum proved what it was.
I then sent him a reply outlining the most obvious differences in the horns (about an A4 page worth) and telling him about the Huller "World" stencils and then directed him to a thread on the same German sax forum where someone asks about the exact same model of sax he has and one of the replies indicated they remember them being recent Chinese horns.
He then pulled the listing and has a local saxophone expert helping him.
Still on Craigslist though...
http://atlanta.craigslist.org/nat/msg/2382950847.html
 

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I laughed my butt off at the "high tenor" "low baritone" description. If he really had "2 sax experts" look at it, wouldn't they have told him it's a tenor? I'm just saying....
.....mmmmmmyyyyyyyyyessssssss...I suppose they would have, eh ? :whistle:

Sure, Helen, I will send you some pics of the Paragon.

I will also keep an eye out on your site for the upcoming rehabbed silverplate...you cannot nail a date any better than from an original owner....

Well...give the guy some credit...he really did take it down. Based on my eFlay experiences...I would have said there was only a 50% chance of that happening once a bid was put in....so, that was the right thing to do.
 

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I finally got around to putting the photos of the Original Hopf Classic up. As you can see, it is identical to the one that is Marsh Woodwinds has for sale. Based on the serial # (75XX) it is among the earliest of the D&J horns. I can only assume that this is how Dörfler & Jörka did their earliest key guards, or, they offered this as an option for their key guards in their early days.

I'm looking forward to seeing shots of your Paragon, JayeSF. Depending on what the serial # is, I'm starting to develop some solid evidence what D&J did with their early horns. I was also contacted about this Ravoy (77XX) with wire guards.
 

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That Ravoy is really gorgeous...have never seen wire guards ona D & J, nor even on a JK of supposedly THAT era (except for the low Eb flat-wire ones on the New Kings). And those are hecka wire guards....very classy.
 
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