[WinnSie]

Tone hole filing seems to be now days a standard technique for leveling tone hole chimneys. No questions.
There was also a past thread from a man objecting tone hole filing who established a different technique of manipulating the metal under the tone hole walls to level the tone hole plane.

When did exactly tone hole filing started to be accepted as a standard tone hole leveling method? 1950-s? 1960-s?
I constantly hear from local techs when they pick up a vintage horn with still original pads on: "I had hard time leveling tone holes on this one."

So it was playing "fine" in the old days and now it appears to be so off that it's hard to believe it played at all! And trust me - I'm talking about fine examples, most of which are almost "closet horns".

Imagine now that you receive a vintage horn for repad and you are asked by the owner NOT to file the tone holes. What would be your options in that case?
Would you simply refuse to repad the horn or would you rather use some special techniques in that case?

You would probably have to warn the owner that:
- Either the repadding cost would be twice as much as your normal rates?
- The horn would not play as well as the one with the perfectly leveled tone holes?

 

[simso]

The tone holes are cut at the factory, typically from my understanding with a rotary cutter for speed of manufacture unless they are rolled.

Old instruments are typically fitted with softer pads to accomodate for said cutting process or possibly that was just the design of the pads (soft), these days most techs and players like a firmer pad and as such we use finer tolerance facing tools than those that were used at time of manufacture

If an owner asked me not to face the tone holes, I would say thanks but no thankyou to the job, I dont provide warranty on work not done to my standards, not facing tone holes is one of those steps - rolled tone holes being excluded from said description

Steve

 

[Grumps]

Filing tone holes is often more beneficial to the repairer than the client; as the fine line is filed away. Like anything, it can be overdone, mangled or misused. Just be wary of techs who do it as a matter of course, and not a matter of last resort.

 

[JayeLID]

If an owner asked me not to face the tone holes, I would say thanks but no thankyou to the job, I dont provide warranty on work not done to my standards, not facing tone holes is one of those steps - rolled tone holes being excluded from said description

Steve

Thank you . :salute:

Me, too...although I will go further than that: if approached by a client who absolutely insists that any leveling to his RTH's be done sans ANY filing, I would also say "I cannot guarantee that". This is NOT because I am a hack and love to grind a nice RTH....which is something far too MANY people coming across this thread may interpret to be the case given what I just wrote.

It is because, if I want to produce the best job for the customer/buyer, I am going to want the freedom to utilize all methods at my disposal. So...no, that doesn't mean aggressive filing of RTH...but it might well mean, after the 'push-up' method, I do do a tad of subtle finish filing.

Imagine now that you receive a vintage horn for repad and you are asked by the owner NOT to file the tone holes. What would be your options in that case?
Would you simply refuse to repad the horn or would you rather use some special techniques in that case?

You would probably have to warn the owner that:
- Either the repadding cost would be twice as much as your normal rates?
- The horn would not play as well as the one with the perfectly leveled tone holes?

First I'd check the levelness. If all was pretty level, but not perfectly level, I'd say it can be done by shimming or floating/pad pricking/bending to get the seal to work....but it wouldn't be the way I want to do it.
If there were fairly dramatic unlevelness, I'd simply say "no".
So, higher estimate ? No, not necessarily.
But, if I didn't decline the job (which as I suggest above, I probably would), I'd tell them my guarantee is 'off'...meaning: it's all sealing now and plays up and down great, but any subsequent work after they walk out the door would be billable.

Why ? Because, again, customer has insisted I not use tried-and-true methods which in my experience achieves the best result.

Basically....most folks would probably not accept such a caveat ...and go somewhere else...so I guess, in fact, it is a circuitous way of saying to 'em "take it somewhere else".

I'd imagine tonehole filing has been done ever since the instrument has existed, actually...certainly earlier than WWII...

 

[WinnSie]

So if soft pads are used to repad a horn without addressing tone hole leveling that would be the most valid option?
By the way in our location tone hole filing became popular not earlier than maybe 10 to 12 years ago.

 

[zapatista]

So if soft pads are used to repad a horn without addressing tone hole leveling that would be the most valid option?
By the way in our location tone hole filing became popular not earlier than maybe 10 to 12 years ago.

Just get a saxophone without pads.

 

[WinnSie]

The tone holes are cut at the factory, typically from my understanding with a rotary cutter for speed of manufacture unless they are rolled.
...
Steve

That's how it was shown in the vintage popular Buescher factory movie. With the rotary cutting like that the tone hole would have to come out perfectly level.
The man in the older thread who I mentioned before and who was objecting the filing/sanding of tone holes had theory why the tone holes would get out of level. According to his idea if cutting was done waiting longer between drawing the tome holes from the body and cutting them to level the would be more perfectly level tone holes.

With the soldered on tone holes like on older Kings and Martins it's a different story I guess but I don't know how the production process was organized. Did they level the tone holes after soldering then on? With the King brazed tone hole chimneys there would be more chance for the metal to distort at high temperatures than with Martin low temp soldering.

 

[mmichel]

Filing tone holes is often more beneficial to the repairer than the client; as the fine line is filed away. Like anything, it can be overdone, mangled or misused. Just be wary of techs who do it as a matter of course, and not a matter of last resort.

+1

I don't have any problem with (judicious) tone hole filing, even of RTH's, but it's not like you're trying to achieve an airtight seal against machined steel discs. Standard saxophone pads are assembled from leather, felt and cardboard and, as a result are almost never perfectly flat. Additionally, they are flexible. So, unless the tone holes are severely unlevel (e.g., the result of blunt force damage, rather than small manufacturing flaws), you don't need to level them.

However, starting with a level tone hole undeniably makes the repadding process much easier and faster.

 

[turf3]

I have a Conn 12M in silver, and there are numerous places where the rolled tone holes have been lightly filed. I have had the horn since 1984 and it was that way when I got it (it's easy to see, because there's bare brass and a little flat area), so someone at least was doing it before then.

 

[mmichel]

I constantly hear from local techs when they pick up a vintage horn with still original pads on: "I had hard time leveling tone holes on this one."

So it was playing "fine" in the old days and now it appears to be so off that it's hard to believe it played at all! And trust me - I'm talking about fine examples, most of which are almost "closet horns".

One issue with vintage horns in particular is that you can get unevenness caused by very fine pitting due to corrosion at the cut surface of the tone hole. Because they are so localized, these pits are insidious and nearly impossible to address using shimming or floating. This is one of the cases in which you essentially must use a file.

 

[Grumps]

So if soft pads are used to repad a horn without addressing tone hole leveling that would be the most valid option?

According to MusicMedic, yes:

https://musicmedic.com/mainpads/saxophone-pads/individual-saxophone-pads/tan-softfeel-pads.html

I've been using these pads with my Conn soprano which has rolled toneholes and getting very good results with the ones I had to replace. I would never want a tech to file away at those.

 

[saxoclese]

Good question. This is an excerpt from "The Encyclopedia of Band Instrument Repair" by Frederick Kirschner published in 1962 (often misnamed the Erick Brand Repair Manual)

To properly seat a pad on a saxophone tone hole, we have to have either a level tone hole or suffer through a deep impression in the pad. A new tool for leveling these tone holes has finally come forth on the market. In the past, repairmen have had to use their eyes, their hands and their imaginations to try and set these tone holes to a point whereby their work of seating was at least partly reasonable. Hand filing may bring us close to the truth but can in no measure whatsoever, give us complete accuracy. As a result, these small deviations cause small pinpoint leaks which will, in turn, hamper any decent musician in the performance of his job on this instrument.

The industry has been crying for many years for a design of a tool that would enable us to quickly and efficiently level the tone holes of a saxophone body so that easy pad seating of the same could take place. Your writer has in his possession such a set of tools, completely and effectively designed so that leveling of all of the tone holes of a saxophone body regardless of how bad, becomes a ten-minute operation. It is important that we describe these tools so that the procedure involved in the use of these tools can be properly described. The tools consist of a set of circular files; this tool comes in four sizes. They have adjust pilots that allow them to hold their level in the tone hole socket. Mere overall description of the tool would be to call it a lollypop. The adjustable pilots are set up on a left hand and right hand thread arrangement so that these adjustable pilots can be set to match the tone hole merely by turning the handle of the tool. The perfect set of these pilots is to turn such a handle to such time as a pilot holds firm in the tone hole at which point, we release the handle slightly so as to allow for the fact that all tone holes are not a true concentric. The thumb is placed firmly against the top of the file which, incidentally, is a leveling plate to check the level of the tone hole after it is cut. With the thumb in this position, the handle is moved in quarter turns back and forth. The file teeth set on these tools are milled slots or edges on angles so that no chips can clog a file; as a result, you have no cleaning involved insofar as the use of this tool is concerned. The movement of the hand in this procedure is kept until such time as the tone hole is completely levelled. Checking for the level of this tone hole is done by reversing the file, the back of which is your leveling plate. Since these files come in four sizes, it is necessary to pick the proper size prior to performing the job. The hardness of these tools is 58-62 Rockwell. This, in effect, is to state that these files are so hard that cutting the brass would make it almost impossible for these tools to go dull; therefore, one can simply state that these tools are a lifetime proposition.

This is a good description of the circular files offered by Ferree's Tool with the exception of the adjustable pilot. This concept was employed by Jim Schmidt in the design of his "Diamond Tonehole Files" which were adopted by Music Medic and used under power using a cordless drill. Prior to the use of the rotary files, technicians had to use fine flat files which were difficult to control to keep from "rocking". The photo below shows the tool set I use for tonehole leveling which includes diamond grit files, "tonehole jacks" to raise low areas of toneholes, and laser cut delrin pilots in half millimeter sizes from 10mm to 49.5mm. I use my files "under power" using a Milwaukee electric screwdriver (not shown).

There is no mention of tonehole leveling in "Selmer Repairing Secrets" by Erick Brand published in 1936. Since I do not have a copy of the Erick Brand "Band Instrument Repairing Manual" I can't report on whether that work mentions tonehole filing or not. Perhaps someone with a copy can add that information.

 

[mmichel]

The photo below shows the tool set I use for tonehole leveling which includes diamond grit files, "tonehole jacks" to raise low areas of toneholes, and laser cut delrin pilots in half millimeter sizes from 10mm to 49.5mm.

How do the tonehole jacks work?

 

[saxoclese]

How do the tonehole jacks work?

Ferree's Tools calls them "dent rod guides". My teacher called them "tonehole jacks". You put the size that most closely matches the size of the tonehole on the opposite side from the side that needs raised and you use the "V" at the front to act as a fulcrum for your steel rod. The steel rod is used to carefully pry up the low area. I would never try to support removing a dent in the body with the top of a tonehole.

 

[WinnSie]

I've seen those "jacks" before and I'm skeptical about them. Their contact area is quite small.
I suspect it's easy to push the tone hole wall down under the fulcrum while applying the raising force on the opposite side with the steel rod.

By the way, I'm mentioning for the third time here a man who started a thread here some time ago about using "no filing" method to level the tone holes. I'm not sure about his exact techniques but he didn't accept any form of filing and tried to convince everyone that it's always possible to level tone holes with the "raising rod technique".
Actually there are two actions involved in that "no filing technique":
- Raising low spots up with the rod
- Tapping high spots down with the disc
There was a video on YT where a tech shows how he levels Conn rolled tone holes with the above two techniques. (I found it, it's below)
So the man I'm mentioning was trying to convince everyone that he uses the same technique for leveling ALL tone holes - rolled and not.

 

[JayeLID]

I have a Conn 12M in silver, and there are numerous places where the rolled tone holes have been lightly filed. I have had the horn since 1984 and it was that way when I got it (it's easy to see, because there's bare brass and a little flat area), so someone at least was doing it before then.

Indeedy. I have seen old repair manuals, talking about from the '50's, perhaps '60's but no later, where tonehole filing is addressed. They used straight, flat files back then, not the rotary diamond type of today. A former member here, Hornfixer ( a senior citizen himself), once photographed the old-school files his dad had used back in the day. They just looked like flat, rectangular hand files. So as Paul was an older gent, and his dad had been a tech before him....this suggests that filing existed quite a while ago, too.

The quote provided by Saxoclese above is from the early 60's and mentions hole filing ('hand-filing").

So this ain't new....

So if soft pads are used to repad a horn without addressing tone hole leveling that would be the most valid option?

One need not use soft-soft pads. Even medium firmness ones can be floated, pricked, shimmed, and/or the keycups bent adequately to get the job done.

But again it depends on HOW unlevel the holes are.

 

[JayeLID]

So, unless the tone holes are severely unlevel (e.g., the result of blunt force damage, rather than small manufacturing flaws), you don't need to level them.

However, starting with a level tone hole undeniably makes the repadding process much easier and faster.

There's an intimation here (and I dunno if intentional or not) that a main purpose of leveling is to make the job go faster. To make it 'easier' for the tech.

That may be a secondary result, but I would say most good techs would not say it is the primary reason. The primary reason = you get a better job when your holes and keycups are level.

Your first sentence above...many a tech would disagree with that, if the goal is to produce the best pad job one could produce, and optimal performance of the horn.

 

[saxoclese]

I've seen those "jacks" before and I'm skeptical about them. Their contact area is quite small.
I suspect it's easy to push the tone hole wall down under the fulcrum while applying the raising force on the opposite side with the steel rod.

I have used this tool and technique with success for nearly 20 years. Because the tonehole insert spreads the downward pressure over a larger surface area the chance that the tonehole on that side is pushed down is quite slim. Even if that should happen it may bring the higher area down to better match the low area that you are trying to raise. The combination of lifting and tapping down is what I refer to as leveling a tonehole by "mechanical means". I do this on every tone hole that needs more than just a "touch" of the rotary file to be perfect. After the tonehole is made as perfect as possible by lifting and tapping the diamond grit "file" just adds the finishing touch.

Another advantage of perfectly flat toneholes that has yet to be mentioned is the stability and dependability of the pad installation when it is done to the highest level with quality materials. The stability and dependability of the overhaul actually benefits the client more than the repair tech who will see the instrument less often unless there is a mishap.

 

[simso]

Actually there are two actions involved in that "no filing technique":
- Raising low spots up with the rod
- Tapping high spots down with the disc
There was a video on YT where a tech shows how he levels Conn rolled tone holes with the above two techniques. (I found it, it's below)
So the man I'm mentioning was trying to convince everyone that he uses the same technique for leveling ALL tone holes - rolled and not.

So your after information on how to raise and lower tone hole edges by warping/altering/damaging the conical bore of the instrument rather than lightly dressing the top of the tone hole with a file.

Kind of back the front dont you think

Steve

 

[clarnibass]

According to MusicMedic, yes

I read this and don't see where they say it is a better method ("the most valid"). Maybe I'm missing it?
I could be wrong and maybe someone from Music Medic or someone who knows for sure can post, but I vaguely remember Music Medic mentioning that they do very slight filing even on rolled tone holes. They certainly file non-rolled tone holes and sell tools to file tone holes. In fact when I asked about their tone hole files, they missed that I was going to buy them anyway, so sent me their "advertisement" (describing how good the tool is, etc.) which included how fast you can file a whole saxophone with the drill attachment.
So if for whatever reason Music Medic is given as an example of what the best method is... you might be incorrect... maybe.