Sax on the Web Forum banner

Help with reed choice.

3K views 35 replies 13 participants last post by  John Laughter 
#1 ·
Help with reeds

So I've been playing Tenor for 7 months now and I love playing ballads, I can play subtoned, also the low Bb.
I currently use Rico royal 2.5 as my standard reed on my Otto Link STM 7*... I do find that playing subtones requires me to put my bottom lip way back into my mouth and over the reed to get a subtone on the lower notes. I've played on an alto from school which had a 2.0 reed and a very small tip opening 4* yamaha mpc. I was able to play subtones without my lip having to go all the way back but just putting the mpc further out of my mouth, my ambrochoure was the same as playing clear.

I am looking for a more dark sound on my tenor, and don't know if going for a stiffer reed or softer would help, I feel like going softer would allow me to play with those subtones and a more controlled tone. Just like I could on the alto.
I've also been experimenting with my new Otto Link Tone Edge 5*, I can play low notes mores easily but feel like my subtones are harder to play. This is probably because of the smaller tip opening. On this mpc I'm using either 2.5 royal or a 4m select jazz... Big difference... The 4m gives me a louder and fuller sound but won't allow me to play subtones easily, the 2.5 sounds very thin and shrill when I'm playing louder.

I just don't know if softer or louder would be better and wich reed would help me with getting a more dark sound, take as an example Benny Golson, Dexter Gordon, Ben Webster etc.
Thanks in advance!

Ps* My horn is a 'Selmer Bundy II'
 
See less See more
1
#5 ·
Vloer - you need to realise much of what you wish to achieve is up to you moreso than your gear. Plus - you have made NO mention of the intrument you are playing - some horns play brighter - some play darker. Q: what do you have?
 
#6 ·
Vloer - what I said on the deleted thread was basically 3 things.

1. stick with Royal reeds for now, maybe go up to a number 3 or 3 1/2 at most. The 4M Select Jazz reed is too hard for you right now.
2. stick with one mouthhpiece - the 5* Tone Edge would be my choice.
3. subtone, as you did on alto, maybe take in a little less mouthpiece. Don’t do a radical embouchure change.

I also suggested that you get a teacher for basic playing mechanics. Usually these kinds of basic approaches are best learned in person with a guide. If you know an experienced player, maybe 2 or 3 lessons will straighten all that stuff out.
 
#7 ·
A #2 on a 4 tip on your alto is like a #1.5 or #1 on your 5* tip on tenor. If you're used to playing reeds that soft, I disagree with the advice to use much harder reeds. I personally don't see how you could do anything except subtone on an alto/tenor on reeds that soft unless you're 95 years old and have only one lung. You really need to work on your embouchure and breath support.
 
#10 ·
Well, you're playing an extremely ordinary setup. Personally I'd focus on learning how to play this setup. With only 7 months total, some of which was undoubtedly spent just flailing about, you don't nearly have a tenor sized airstream or a well developed embouchure.

What you need to be doing is learning how to control the dynamic level and timbre of your sound with your embouchure, voicing, and airstream.The good old long tones are a fast track to that, if you'll do them with ATTENTION and with INTENTION.

I will say that although tenor is not my main instrument, I've been playing it for 45 years now (baritone is my primary, alto a close second), I'm well known for having stong chops and blowing hard, and I wouldn't be playing a setup any harder to blow than what you're using. My tenor Link is a 6 but I'm using reeds that would probably be more like your #3s. So bumping up your reed strength, or fooling around with flavor of the week, is probably not going to HURT you but it will distract you from what you need to be doing which is building chops to have a rich compelling flexible sound. Your setup is extremely unlikely to be hindering you in that.

It's like the guy who can't get any distance off the tee so he keeps buying drivers, but what he needs is to straighten out his swing. Until he does that, the $100 set of clubs from the pawn shop is as good as the $2000 set.
 
#28 ·
For 7 months playing, that’s very nice. Really, I can hear what you are trying to do. Keep listening and keep working on the concepts you are developing.

I reiterate what I said. Stay with the #3 reed on whatever mouthpiece you were using on that track. For at least a year!

Specific things to work on - as @turf3 said, your tone is a little weak. The solution is breath support. You are trying to control too much with your embouchure. You have to control with your air. Push your belly muscles out strongly, like you are going to be punched, and use that as support for your air. Shoulders and upper chest relaxed, use your belly to control your breathing.

Long tones can help, but if you do them pay close attention to tone quality and play at several volumes. I used to do 15 second long tones, start soft, crescendo to loud, then down to soft again. Strong belly all the way. But you need to pay attention to breath support ALL the time, it should be the first thing you think about every time you play.
 
#20 ·
You want some honest feedback?

1) Work on being more rhythmically solid.
2) Put some air through the horn.
3) Play long phrases, not just pecking at it. (getting good full size breaths will help you with this.)
4) The shallow fast vibrato makes it unclear whether you're going to do vibrato or not. Just like everything else in performance, effects have to be played in a way that feels exaggerated to you in order not to come across as tentative out front of the horn.
5) Put some air through the horn.

The basic sound is fine. It's just underdeveloped. A few months playing long tones outdoors will go a long way to getting rid of that "practice room sound". Sorry to call it the way I hear it, but there it is.

There's nothing here that some serious practice won't make a whole lot better. Equipment (reeds, mouthpiece, etc.) is not the answer.
 
#22 ·
#26 · (Edited)
pppp = pianissississimo. So soft it drops out and you have to come back and restart the tone.
ffff = fortissississimo. So loud you can't hardly keep it under control and it keeps wanting to break up.

When you're playing, try to feel that the air column starts down around your navel and goes clear through your mouth into the horn out the bell and up against that wall a hundred yards away. Use the muscles down in your gut to push the air. Don't think you're getting a good breath by hiking your shoulders way up in the air, introducing all kinds of tension in the upper back. Get your good big breath by feeling like you're putting the air down at the bottom of your rib cage. (This is not all anatomically correct, but what you're trying to do is to get a FEELING for how it feels to get a proper breath and push it through the horn properly.)

Do you have a qualified saxophone instructor working with you? A lot of this stuff will come faster with someone to guide. Honestly I'd say that the keys to getting a good sound out of the saxophone are something like 75% airstream, 20% embouchure and oral-cavity voicing, and 5% equipment. Yes, the equipment makes a difference and it makes it easier or more difficult to do what you want to do, but the stronger your fundamentals of tone production, the less it matters to have exactly that one perfect mouthpiece and reed.
 
#27 ·
pppp = pianissississimo. So soft it drops out and you have to come back and restart the tone.
ffff = fortissississimo. So loud you can't hardly keep it under control and it keeps wanting to break up.
Ohhhhh wasn't thinking in theory but now it makes sense, I'll start doing my long tones outside and use your technique and see if it works for me! Thanks a lot for the advice!
 
#30 ·
I agree with all the advice given above, so no need to repeat it. However, as skeller said, your tone is not bad for only 7 months on the horn. Keeping in mind all the things turf3 pointed out.
I am looking for a more dark sound on my tenor
Your tone sounds plenty dark to me. I wouldn't want to go any darker, just 'stronger & fuller' as already mentioned.
 
#31 ·
It's too early to be "trying for a darker sound" on tenor. I'm not even sure why this "darker! darker! darker!" thing became a thing amongst young players.

I suggest you put some serious time in the shed, then on the bandstand trying to play something compelling and interesting, and then see what your tone turns out to be. When I started out playing alto I thought I wanted to sound like Paul Desmond (I think every alto player under 20 goes through a Desmond period) - and now at 60 the biggest influences on my alto playing are Arthur Blythe, Sonny Criss, Hank Crawford and Lou Donaldson. All very far from that Desmond sound. On tenor I wanted to sound like Trane and I sound like Booker Ervin instead. Go figure.
 
#34 ·
Lots of great advice here, mostly similar. I think consensus is developing a strong foundation by putting in time on the horn and being patient. While long tones can get boring, they're essential to having good breath control and good sound. Always practice with a metronome, mostly slow (like around 60 bpm), even during long tones, to develop your sense of rhythm. There are plenty of tricks to help long tones not be as boring. In addition to holding a steady volume, I find great value in doing them super soft to super loud to super soft (and vis versa) in one breath, up and down the horn. Doing that is great for breath control, rhythm, embouchure strength, sound, etc, etc. I also like to go into kind of a meditative state while doing long tones...I try to get rid of all thought while focusing on the tone. Don't worry too much about subtones, yet. In working on a strong foundation, subtones kind of develop on their own. Something that really helps with sound is listening, a lot, to the players you like. You'll get their sound in your head. Over time, the sound in your head is what comes out of your horn. You'll always sound like you, but there'll be hints of the players you like most. By the way, everyone wants to sound like Dexter Gordon (he's known by most to have one of the all time best sounds), but his exact sound can never really be replicated. Regarding mouthpieces and reeds, experimentation is key. At your level, my opinion is go with a smaller tip opening and softer reed. That combination is easiest to control, develop a good embouchure and good sound. Mouthpiece and reed a personal choice. However, assuming you're playing a good quality reed and mouthpiece, good sound can be had. The sound quality comes from practice time. A good player (because they patiently put in the time) can make sound good just about any reed, mouthpiece, horn combination. Above all else, develop a relationship with your horn. Pretty much all of us will agree that the saxophone is a beautiful instrument in every possible way. Like any deep relationship, it has to develop over time. Enjoy the journey!
 
#36 ·
Just a few to listen to if you want to;
Sil Austin - "Danny Boy"
“Misty” - Eddie “Lockjaw” Davis with Shirley Scott
“The Shadow of Your Smile” - Boots Randolph
Houston Person – “Here's That Rainy Day”
“Here's That Rainy Day” - Gene Ammons
“Here's That Rainy Day” - Stanley Turrentine
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top