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Help with reed choice.

1497 Views 35 Replies 13 Participants Last post by  John Laughter
Help with reeds

So I've been playing Tenor for 7 months now and I love playing ballads, I can play subtoned, also the low Bb.
I currently use Rico royal 2.5 as my standard reed on my Otto Link STM 7*... I do find that playing subtones requires me to put my bottom lip way back into my mouth and over the reed to get a subtone on the lower notes. I've played on an alto from school which had a 2.0 reed and a very small tip opening 4* yamaha mpc. I was able to play subtones without my lip having to go all the way back but just putting the mpc further out of my mouth, my ambrochoure was the same as playing clear.

I am looking for a more dark sound on my tenor, and don't know if going for a stiffer reed or softer would help, I feel like going softer would allow me to play with those subtones and a more controlled tone. Just like I could on the alto.
I've also been experimenting with my new Otto Link Tone Edge 5*, I can play low notes mores easily but feel like my subtones are harder to play. This is probably because of the smaller tip opening. On this mpc I'm using either 2.5 royal or a 4m select jazz... Big difference... The 4m gives me a louder and fuller sound but won't allow me to play subtones easily, the 2.5 sounds very thin and shrill when I'm playing louder.

I just don't know if softer or louder would be better and wich reed would help me with getting a more dark sound, take as an example Benny Golson, Dexter Gordon, Ben Webster etc.
Thanks in advance!

Ps* My horn is a 'Selmer Bundy II'
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Consider the two concepts presented here. Both putting tons of air through the horn, playing nice long phrases, and both sound like they have a real concept of what they're doing.

JOHN COLTRANE , STAN GETZ Autumn in New York - YouTube

Then here's kind of the epitome of tenor sax ballad playing, aside from Ben Webster. No practice room sound here.

Dexter Gordon - Autumn In New York - YouTube
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You want some honest feedback?

1) Work on being more rhythmically solid.
2) Put some air through the horn.
3) Play long phrases, not just pecking at it. (getting good full size breaths will help you with this.)
4) The shallow fast vibrato makes it unclear whether you're going to do vibrato or not. Just like everything else in performance, effects have to be played in a way that feels exaggerated to you in order not to come across as tentative out front of the horn.
5) Put some air through the horn.

The basic sound is fine. It's just underdeveloped. A few months playing long tones outdoors will go a long way to getting rid of that "practice room sound". Sorry to call it the way I hear it, but there it is.

There's nothing here that some serious practice won't make a whole lot better. Equipment (reeds, mouthpiece, etc.) is not the answer.
Thanks for the feedback! But I don't quite get what you mean with "put some air through the horn"? Do you mean I should play with more air support? What would you recommend to practice it?
Thanks for the feedback! But I don't quite get what you mean with "put some air through the horn"? Do you mean I should play with more air support? What would you recommend to practice it?
My go-to exercise:

Long tones from the lowest note on the horn to the highest note: play from pppp to fffff back to pppp, while paying careful attention to maintaining pitch and timbre constant. As often as possible do this outdoors away from reflective surfaces. If it worked for the Texas Tenors (Arnett Cobb, Buddy Tate, Illinois Jacquet, those guys) it'll work for you. Do that regularly for a year and your sound will be far more rich, flexible, and your dynamic range will increase.
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My go-to exercise:

Long tones from the lowest note on the horn to the highest note: play from pppp to fffff back to pppp, while paying careful attention to maintaining pitch and timbre constant. As often as possible do this outdoors away from reflective surfaces. If it worked for the Texas Tenors (Arnett Cobb, Buddy Tate, Illinois Jacquet, those guys) it'll work for you. Do that regularly for a year and your sound will be far more rich, flexible, and your dynamic range will increase.
By ppppp and ffff you mean that's the the shape of your mouth and air you need to use?

And I'll start playing outside because I do indeed only play in my bedroom. Luckily the warm nice weather is coming up!
pppp = pianissississimo. So soft it drops out and you have to come back and restart the tone.
ffff = fortissississimo. So loud you can't hardly keep it under control and it keeps wanting to break up.

When you're playing, try to feel that the air column starts down around your navel and goes clear through your mouth into the horn out the bell and up against that wall a hundred yards away. Use the muscles down in your gut to push the air. Don't think you're getting a good breath by hiking your shoulders way up in the air, introducing all kinds of tension in the upper back. Get your good big breath by feeling like you're putting the air down at the bottom of your rib cage. (This is not all anatomically correct, but what you're trying to do is to get a FEELING for how it feels to get a proper breath and push it through the horn properly.)

Do you have a qualified saxophone instructor working with you? A lot of this stuff will come faster with someone to guide. Honestly I'd say that the keys to getting a good sound out of the saxophone are something like 75% airstream, 20% embouchure and oral-cavity voicing, and 5% equipment. Yes, the equipment makes a difference and it makes it easier or more difficult to do what you want to do, but the stronger your fundamentals of tone production, the less it matters to have exactly that one perfect mouthpiece and reed.
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pppp = pianissississimo. So soft it drops out and you have to come back and restart the tone.
ffff = fortissississimo. So loud you can't hardly keep it under control and it keeps wanting to break up.
Ohhhhh wasn't thinking in theory but now it makes sense, I'll start doing my long tones outside and use your technique and see if it works for me! Thanks a lot for the advice!

Can't go wrong with an WeTransfer link
For 7 months playing, that’s very nice. Really, I can hear what you are trying to do. Keep listening and keep working on the concepts you are developing.

I reiterate what I said. Stay with the #3 reed on whatever mouthpiece you were using on that track. For at least a year!

Specific things to work on - as @turf3 said, your tone is a little weak. The solution is breath support. You are trying to control too much with your embouchure. You have to control with your air. Push your belly muscles out strongly, like you are going to be punched, and use that as support for your air. Shoulders and upper chest relaxed, use your belly to control your breathing.

Long tones can help, but if you do them pay close attention to tone quality and play at several volumes. I used to do 15 second long tones, start soft, crescendo to loud, then down to soft again. Strong belly all the way. But you need to pay attention to breath support ALL the time, it should be the first thing you think about every time you play.
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I agree with all the advice given above, so no need to repeat it. However, as skeller said, your tone is not bad for only 7 months on the horn. Keeping in mind all the things turf3 pointed out.
I am looking for a more dark sound on my tenor
Your tone sounds plenty dark to me. I wouldn't want to go any darker, just 'stronger & fuller' as already mentioned.
It's too early to be "trying for a darker sound" on tenor. I'm not even sure why this "darker! darker! darker!" thing became a thing amongst young players.

I suggest you put some serious time in the shed, then on the bandstand trying to play something compelling and interesting, and then see what your tone turns out to be. When I started out playing alto I thought I wanted to sound like Paul Desmond (I think every alto player under 20 goes through a Desmond period) - and now at 60 the biggest influences on my alto playing are Arthur Blythe, Sonny Criss, Hank Crawford and Lou Donaldson. All very far from that Desmond sound. On tenor I wanted to sound like Trane and I sound like Booker Ervin instead. Go figure.
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By ppppp and ffff you mean that's the the shape of your mouth and air you need to use?
I found this video very helpful to understand that concept:
…and see if it works for me!
You’ve stepped into an incredibly large, diverse, and capable room of teachers, players, and many that are both. I doubt you will get any better, more insightful, and genuinely valuable nutz & bolts advice for ANY player at ANY skill level than what @turf3 has given you.

”…and See if it works for me”? My good sir I mean this next in the most constructive, and non-insulting way possible. If you actually apply what @turf3 has freely given you to this point and it does not work for you, then you will be the only sax player since Adolphe Sax himself for which these things do not work. He has literally given you the keys to the kingdom.

Liking, typing, talking, listening, and understanding will not get you there (although they may be a small part). What has been offered are the blueprints for what players have called by names such as the woodshed, shedding, and paying your dues.

It’s hard work.
In the beginning it rarely sounds like what you think you want.
It’s hard work.
Shedding is not sexy, but the results of it most definitely are.
It’s hard work.
Other people listening to your woodshed work will likely hate it…and you.
It’s hard work.
Be prepared to sound like a feathered animal being violated.
It’s hard work.
The only thing standing between you being smooth, or a screamer on a 7* and Rico 3’s, is hard work.
It’s hard work.
Read, read, re-read, and read again EVERYTHING @turf3 posted in this thread.
It’s hard work.
Don’t change your gear, change your playing.
It’s ALL hard work.

Are you willing and able to put in that work?

Sax is unlike piano, guitar, bass, and electronic keys. You cannot buy a sound on the sax. You have to personally, for yourself, by yourself, earn it and re-earn it every day.
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Lots of great advice here, mostly similar. I think consensus is developing a strong foundation by putting in time on the horn and being patient. While long tones can get boring, they're essential to having good breath control and good sound. Always practice with a metronome, mostly slow (like around 60 bpm), even during long tones, to develop your sense of rhythm. There are plenty of tricks to help long tones not be as boring. In addition to holding a steady volume, I find great value in doing them super soft to super loud to super soft (and vis versa) in one breath, up and down the horn. Doing that is great for breath control, rhythm, embouchure strength, sound, etc, etc. I also like to go into kind of a meditative state while doing long tones...I try to get rid of all thought while focusing on the tone. Don't worry too much about subtones, yet. In working on a strong foundation, subtones kind of develop on their own. Something that really helps with sound is listening, a lot, to the players you like. You'll get their sound in your head. Over time, the sound in your head is what comes out of your horn. You'll always sound like you, but there'll be hints of the players you like most. By the way, everyone wants to sound like Dexter Gordon (he's known by most to have one of the all time best sounds), but his exact sound can never really be replicated. Regarding mouthpieces and reeds, experimentation is key. At your level, my opinion is go with a smaller tip opening and softer reed. That combination is easiest to control, develop a good embouchure and good sound. Mouthpiece and reed a personal choice. However, assuming you're playing a good quality reed and mouthpiece, good sound can be had. The sound quality comes from practice time. A good player (because they patiently put in the time) can make sound good just about any reed, mouthpiece, horn combination. Above all else, develop a relationship with your horn. Pretty much all of us will agree that the saxophone is a beautiful instrument in every possible way. Like any deep relationship, it has to develop over time. Enjoy the journey!
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I was finally able to listen to your recording. In addition to what others have said, I'm not hearing any subtone at all, just straight tone. Are you trying to subtone? Do you know what subtone sounds like?
Just a few to listen to if you want to;
Sil Austin - "Danny Boy"
“Misty” - Eddie “Lockjaw” Davis with Shirley Scott
“The Shadow of Your Smile” - Boots Randolph
Houston Person – “Here's That Rainy Day”
“Here's That Rainy Day” - Gene Ammons
“Here's That Rainy Day” - Stanley Turrentine
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